Think Like a Navy SEAL

[00:00:00] Jon: The only emotions that we were allowed to show was anger and extreme joy.

[00:00:04] Kate: Oh God. That just hurt my soul.

[00:00:08] Jon: Did well academically and athletically, but I wasn't one of the cool kids. Wasn't one of the rich kids. And as blessed as I was, I always wanted to be one of those cool kids and rich kids.

[00:00:18] Kate: It's BS, and I'm tired of it. But thank you, because you just gave me such a release.

[00:00:22] Jon: I think in order to be authentic, you have to be vulnerable. I believe in the power of therapy, not just to fix problems, but to help maintain.

[00:00:29] Kate: You're making me emotional. I think because you're speaking to the season that I've been in, which has a bit about self-validation. And it's hard because--

[00:00:39] Jon: Asking for help is not quitting. It's actually admitting that you're not ready to quit. We had coffee machines in other spots too, but she would always come in there to get coffee.

[00:00:47] Kate: She's slick. She's slick. I like her.

[00:00:49] Jon: She's slick.

[00:00:50] Kate: What do you believe is the greatest challenge we face today, not just in policy, but in spirit?

[00:00:56] Jon: Oof.

[00:00:57] Kate: Hey, there. Welcome back to Rawish with Kate Eckman. Here today with a former Navy Seal Commander. He was in service for 24 years. So even right there, we know we're going to get a lot of value out of this conversation. And I promise he'll go easy on you, but there are so many things that we can take away from our guests today. So Jon Macaskill, thank you so much for being here today.

[00:01:22] Jon: Thanks for having me, Kate. I'm excited for the conversation.

[00:01:25] Kate: And you're laughing. I don't know why. We'll get to it. Because you think Navy Seal and you immediately think hardcore, and you're such a lovely human. And that's where I'd actually like to start our conversation today, because you've been on so many shows, and you've talked about your experience, and we're all impressed with who you are and what you do.

[00:01:43] But the humanitarian in me, I guess, would just love a little nugget or moment you could share maybe something that seemed simple or basic or ordinary, but a memory from your 24 years of service that sticks out to you, that has nothing to do with winning awards or being hardcore, but maybe a softer moment, if you will.

[00:02:03] Jon: Yeah, I've got a perfect one actually. It's a very embarrassing one. So when I was a Navy lieutenant, I had a Navy senior chief. So I'm not sure how much you know about the enlisted versus officer ranks, but I was an officer, and this enlisted guy asked me to re-enlist him, which is an honor to be asked to re-enlist someone.

[00:02:28] You stand before them and have them raise their right hand, and you raise your right hand, and then have them repeat after you. And there's a script. And I had memorized this script thinking it was just going to be this guy and his family. I walked in to reenlist this guy, and it was him and his family, and then this whole room of people including, very senior Navy Seals and admiral, some master chiefs. And I froze.

[00:02:56] I got so nervous, and I didn't-- a lot of people will read the script. They'll have the little card, and they read it so that they don't mess up. But I had memorized it with the plan of, just, hey, going at it. And yeah, I totally forgot it. I got up there and said, "Raise your right hand. Repeat after me." And bonked it big time. And I said what I could remember from the script, and we technically reenlisted him, or I guess unofficially reenlisted him.

[00:03:28] And afterwards, a master chief, a different person came out from the crowd. He's like, "Sir, I'm not even sure that counts as a reenlistment because that was terrible." And from then on, I never tried to remember it. I printed it, and I had it right there in front of me, and I read it every time I reenlisted someone else. But, oh my gosh, that's an experience for my 24 years that I still remember.

[00:03:51] The guy that I did it for, every once in a while, he'll hit me up on LinkedIn. He is like, "Hey, Sir. I retired as a master chief, but I'm not sure it actually counted." It was awful, awful.

[00:04:04] Kate: I love this story because when you think of Navy Seal, and you're in the battlefield, and you've had so many roles, but you have to really manage and harness your emotions and your nerves. And so to go into a combat and you're good to go, but then to do something that seems much easier in many ways, which you thought as well, and to have, I guess some emotion or something come up in that moment.

[00:04:28] Jon: Oh, yeah. I'll tell you, I was more scared there than I was on the battlefield. Don't get me wrong, the battlefield is scary. But that moment I was totally caught off guard, and I got the amygdala hijack. I was shaking. I'm sure I was sweating. I'm sure people could see my heart beating.

[00:04:42] It was something else, which is ironic now, considering I do some public speaking, and speaking in front of crowds is what I do. Although if you ask me to reenlist somebody in front of a crowd, reenlist somebody in front of a crowd, I'd probably botch it again if I didn't have it written.

[00:05:00] Kate: Why do you think that is? It's not even the enormity of it because you've done so many enormous things with high stakes. What do you think it is?

[00:05:09] Jon: Now I think it's a mental block over that particular thing. But yeah, I think, public speaking is the number one fear, even over death, amongst human beings. And it's just a natural thing. If you have something sprung on you and you don't have it memorized, you haven't practiced it 1,000 times, it's very difficult to get it right. Or at least for some people, and me being included in that group.

[00:05:37] But when I speak publicly, I do have a script, but I veer from it all the time. Whereas with this particular thing, it is a script, and you cannot veer from it. So I think that's also a piece. And that also ties to the battlefield. We go into the battlefield with a plan, but it never goes according to plan. You always veer from that plan.

[00:06:02] And being able to adjust, I think I'm actually more comfortable being able to adjust slightly than I am having to stick to an actual script or a plan that you cannot veer from. And I think most people would be that way. So yeah, I think there's a mental block in then having to stick to a script exactly. That's not me.

[00:06:22] Kate: Okay. I want to get more into the Navy, but this is a perfect segue. I have so many questions I want to talk to you about. One of my favorite spiritual principles is we teach what we need to learn. And you just spoke about mental blocks, and now you teach mindfulness. And thank you for doing this as a man, and you even have a podcast about mindfulness for men.

[00:06:42] And thank you for taking this on because I think sometimes men think that's so cute that you ladies do it. I go to all these mindfulness, spiritual things, and it's all women. And maybe some gay boyfriends got brought along for fun and a husband or two because I think he was probably promised something fun later.

[00:07:00] But I'm like, "Where are all the men?" so thank you for taking this on. But what is it about? Because you're so present as a Navy Seal. You talk about this mental block. But then talk about that segue into mindfulness.

[00:07:15] Jon: Yeah. Just a little backstory on how I got into it. I struggled with my own demons from on and off the battlefield, things I did, things I didn't do. And it caused me a lot of anxiety, depression, you name it. I was struggling with it. And I addressed that through secretly drinking and then abusing prescription medication.

[00:07:39] And I got into a very dark spot in my life. I ended up going to see a counselor, and this counselor recommended mindfulness and meditation to me. And this part's going to sound a little scripted, ironically, because I do speak about this particular piece on stage regularly.

[00:07:57] But he recommended mindfulness and meditation to me, and I laughed at them. Because exactly what you just mentioned, so many men perceive it as these soft practices, which it's not. But I'll get into that here in a second. But me as this Navy SEAL from a ultra-masculine community, and I say masculine in the traditional terms, how people view masculinity.

[00:08:23] And I will also get into that here in a second. But anyway, came from this ultra masculinity community, guy telling me about mindfulness and meditation, I laugh at him. And then he says, "What if I had a pill that I could give to you that would increase and improve your performance?" And I was like, "Heck yeah."

[00:08:40] If you're going to give me something that's going to improve my performance, I'm going to take it. Because as a Navy Seal, that's one thing that you focus a lot on, is your performance, personal and professional, physical and mental. And so he tricked me into saying, "Yes, I'll try mindfulness and meditation." Because it wasn't a pill. It was mindfulness and meditation.

[00:08:58] So I try this meditation the next day, and a Type A personality that I am, I'm like, "If I'm going to do anything, I'm going to do it all in. I'm going to go all in." So I sit down to meditate for an hour day one, which was a terrible mistake because I made it 20 seconds into the meditation, and didn't do very well.

[00:09:18] So then I go back to the doc, the same doc the following week. I'm like, hey, man. This meditation is not for me. I'm too "a high performer." I'm too busy. People who meditate must not have a whole lot of things going on in their lives. And he says, "Well, what did you do?" Right, exactly.

[00:09:34] And I said, "I sat down to meditate for an hour." And he says, "Okay, slow down. If you do that, that's like lining up at the starting line of a marathon without ever having run a step before." So we got to ease into it. So then he says, "Okay, I want you to sit down, and I want you to close your eyes, and I want you to breathe in for a count of four, hold for a count of four, breathe out for a count of four, hold for a count of four."

[00:09:58] And for those who are listening and not watching, I just drew a box. Each edge of the box is one of the parts of the breath, and that's called box breathing. And ironically, we had done that in the Seal teams, or at least something similar to that.

[00:10:12] And that was to calm our heart rate down and calm our respiratory rate down so that we could shoot better. And we called it tactical breathing or something to that effect. And it was a cool name. So we thought, hey, yeah, I'll do it. But it wasn't sold to us as something to calm us down if we were nervous or anything like that. It was just basically to shoot better.

[00:10:33] So anyway, he teaches me this in the room with him. And then I drove out in traffic after that session and some jerk cut me off in traffic. And I'm thinking, well, I'm going to go chase him down and flip him the bird. And then I thought, oh, well, something that probably would be better is let me try this practice that I just learned.

[00:10:52] And so I did some box breathing behind the steering wheel, and my eyes were obviously open during that. But it helped. It helped. And then I started doing it more regularly throughout my days. And it helped me to, I don't want to say reduce stress because I don't believe it reduces stress, but it helped me to handle stress better, manage that stress.

[00:11:12] And then I got into more in-depth breath work and more in-depth meditation, and learned a lot more about it and started practicing it regularly. And I believe it changed my life for the better and then quite literally saved my life. So that's how I got into practicing, and then later teaching it.

[00:11:31] Now, as far as the, where are all the men? It's funny, it has started to creep into the warrior world again recently. And I say again because if you look back at the Spartans and the Samurai warriors, they practiced some form of meditation before they went on the battlefield.

[00:11:52] And that was so that they would have more awareness, which is just another word for mindfulness, is awareness, being in the present moment. And we talk about situational awareness or combat awareness, tactical awareness, but nobody ever calls that mindfulness.

[00:12:09] But that's exactly where I want my warriors that are next to me. I want them to be paying attention. I don't want them all amped up on smelling salts and chest bumping before they get on the battlefield. I want them focused on what's happening. There's a lot of goodness in being aggressive on the battlefield, but then being overly aggressive can also cause you to make a lot of mistakes.

[00:12:30] I want you present. I want you aware. So that has started to creep back into the warrior community. And you've seen it in sports. Recently you've seen some of the quarterbacks meditating before a big game. You've seen a lot of the Olympic athletes meditating. So I think it's starting to grab hold in the masculine world, which is fantastic.

[00:12:57] And then coming back again, I told you, I've talked about mindfulness and I talk about the masculine side of things. Masculinity to me when I was in the SEAL teams was the guy in a flannel shirt walking around with an ax on his shoulder, going to chop wood. And that's fantastic. That's a great man.

[00:13:15] But there's other forms of masculinity as well, and practicing mindfulness and meditation doesn't preclude you from being a man. It is a tough practice. As simple as it is, it's still tough to do. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of discipline, effort. And I think anything that takes effort and discipline is going to make you a better person, and that's making you a better woman or a better man, or anything in between that I'm a big fan of.

[00:13:43] Kate: Oh, thank you for sharing all of that. So many things are coming to mind. One is I thank you for your visual of masculinity. My new definition, and I feel like you're giving me that space, is a man who is so in his masculine that he allows a powerful woman or a feminine to be in her feminine.

[00:14:03] I had a coach recently say to me, and it was such a revelation, she said, "No one's ever really allowed you to be in your feminine. You've always had to be in your masculine to fend for yourself." And in career, we're all in our masculine to hustle and grind. And so now any man who can allow me to be a soft, feminine woman, that is a real man to me. And I know you're married too, and to another Navy Seal, right?

[00:14:30] Jon: No, she served with me at Seal Team 10. Currently, there's no female Navy Seals, but she did serve with me at Seal Team 10. She's an orthopedic physician assistant. And yeah, we got married after in Afghanistan romance. Yeah. And I want to tell you--

[00:14:45] Kate: Yeah. I want to hear about that.

[00:14:46] Jon: Oh yeah, for sure. I'll tell you more about that. But I'll say, I want to come back to this masculinity and feminine side. So my wife is very driven, very high performing, served amongst a whole bunch of dudes on a SEAL Team. She has six brothers, and I will say she has a very strong masculine side, but she can also be very feminine.

[00:15:10] And so many men get this wrong. They think that the word feminine means weak. And feminine is the furthest thing from weak. Men can also have a feminine side. That doesn't mean effeminate. That doesn't mean metrosexual or anything. Hey, if that's what you are, that's what you are. But you can be that wood chopping guy and still have a feminine side.

[00:15:39] And I think that's where masculinity really comes in, is when a man can express both his masculine side and his feminine side, and then be comfortable with a partner that can display both. So that's where I'm with that. As far as my wife and I, so we deployed together.

[00:15:58] She was the PA at Seal Team 10, basically managing the medical side of missions. I was the operations officer there. In a way, she worked for me, and I was actually going through a divorce at the same time. And she and I, we had a coffee machine in my office. We had coffee machines in other spots too, but she would always come in there to get coffee.

[00:16:24] Kate: She's slick. She's slick. I like her.

[00:16:26] Jon: She's slick. And we would talk when she was getting her coffee and ended up really enjoying the talks and enjoying her company. And one night I decided, hey, you know what? I'm going to bite the bullet. This is potential professional suicide.

[00:16:43] And I called her up to my office. And I was like, "Hey, I want to talk about something that's not necessarily professional, and I just want to tell you that I've developed feelings for you." And she said, "Oh. Well, I've developed feelings for you too." And now in hindsight, she's always like, "Oh, I shouldn't have used that. I should have been like, oh, hmm, this is awkward."

[00:17:07] And she always jokes that she could have filed the equivalent of an HR report against me or all sorts of things. But thankfully, I'd picked up on her signals properly. And yeah, here we are now, married 11-plus years later, and we've got three kids. So it worked out. I'm not encouraging people to take that professional risk all the time, but it worked out in my case.

[00:17:36] Kate: The coffee gave it away. Well, thank God. But yeah, that is funny, what she said because she could have taken that another way.

[00:17:42] Jon: Oh my gosh. She totally could have, and she regrets not taking it in another way. Because we joke with one another.

[00:17:48] Kate: She's fiesty.

[00:17:48] Jon: Oh, she's totally. Oh my gosh. Oh yeah, she's something else. She's a handful lover. So we've got three kids, two daughters and a little boy in between, young kids. And my 4-year-old little girl is my wife made over. She is feisty. Runs the show. Totally just a firecracker. And my wife jokes. She's like, "Now I see what my mom had to put up with all the time."

[00:18:16] Kate: Mm. Yeah, exactly. I have no kids, maybe for a reason. Anyway, I was very, very feisty myself. Yes, very fussy.

[00:18:25] Jon: I'm picking that up.

[00:18:28] Kate: So Navy Seal or not, I feel-- and my dad was in the Army, fought in Vietnam, and so I've learned firsthand from him. Even to this day, it's gotten a little better, and so that's why I so appreciate you and the work you're doing. I feel that men are given a card at birth that says you do not show your emotion, and you keep it all in.

[00:18:50] And then I think that's why many turn to drugs or alcohol or some other form of numbing or suppressing. So it's like, whoa, I'm feeling a lot. This is uncomfortable. Let me numb it. Can you speak to that a lot and your journey from numbing and suppressing, and if you feel that you got that script at life? And then you're in the Navy. I would not last a day in the military because I'd be giggling and cracking jokes, and I would be thrown out really fast. And I'm not good at not showing emotion. I'm the Miss Feelings over here.

[00:19:21] So I would just love if you could share your journey with feelings and emotion. You're married. You've been married twice, so there had to be some feelings there to fall in love, and you've got this great relationship now. So I think for all the men out there, or all of us who have emotionally unavailable men in our lives and we struggle with that, anything that you can share with us would be really helpful, me included, especially.

[00:19:47] Jon: I wish that I could say that I'm this model of emotional resilience and emotional control. But even with the mindfulness and meditation, there are times when I'm not the best. But I'll say I'm better than I was. Now that said, yes, I think a lot of men are handed that man card when they're young and told, "Hey, big boys don't cry." Or boys, period, don't cry. They don't show their emotions.

[00:20:12] And then a lot of groups that they join further instill that, like if you join a football team. I ran track and cross country, and it was a lot of dudes. Clearly, it was a boys team. And we did everything together, but if anybody showed any emotion, the only emotions that we were able to show, it wasn't expressed explicitly, but it was understood.

[00:20:39] The only emotions that we were allowed to show was anger and extreme joy. So we won the state championship a couple of times, and crying from joy because of how hard we had worked, that was one thing. But if you were crying for sadness, that was weak. That was weak.

[00:20:57] So that's one of the reasons we run the podcast that we run, is called Men Talking Mindfulness. And it is about mindfulness, but it's also about men and allowing ourselves to be more authentic in our humanness. And with that, there comes a sense of vulnerability. I think in order to be authentic, you have to be vulnerable.

[00:21:20] I'm sure you've seen Brene Brown's talk on vulnerability, and we've all read her books as well. She talks about vulnerability and strength being on the same side of the spectrum. It takes a lot of strength to be vulnerable. And that's what a lot of men get wrong. They're like, "If you're being vulnerable, you're being weak." And I've been there.

[00:21:36] If you're asking for help, that's-- I won't say the word, but I'm sure you can imagine the word that a lot of guys call you. But if you're asking for help, that's a true sign of strength. There's a wonderful book. I'm going to mess up the name. It's really mostly a graphical book. It's The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and The Horse or something to that effect.

[00:21:57] And this boy, he can talk to these animals, and he is spending time with all three of these animals, a fox, a mole, and a horse. And the boy asks the horse, "What's the bravest thing you ever said?" And the horse says, "How to ask for help." And then he says, "Asking for help is not quitting." It's actually something to the effect of-- I'm paraphrasing here.

[00:22:23] Asking for help is not quitting. It's actually admitting that you're not ready to quit. And asking for that help, I think, is going to better enable you to face the challenges that are coming and get to the desired end state. A lot of the time, if you don't ask for help, if the desired end state is over here, you're not going to get there.

[00:22:44] And then you're going to reach something short of that, and that can cause major depression, major anxiety, major disappointment in yourself. And I think we've all been to a place where we've had somebody that we truly respected say, "I'm disappointed in you." Yeah, I see your face already.

[00:23:02] When somebody that you truly respect says, "I'm disappointed in you," that hurts. But when you say, "I'm disappointed in myself," that cuts really deep. And if you don't reach those goals or you don't dig yourself out of those holes that you're in I think quite often we do tell ourselves, "I'm disappointed in myself." So asking for help allows us to not have to say that. So long story. Sorry. I hope I didn't go down too many rabbit holes there.

[00:23:34] Kate: No, no, that was good. It's interesting because I just am in the present moment with my conversations. But I don't know if it's because of you, and I was thinking mindfulness. 20 minutes before I showed up here, I was meditating, and I asked my spirit higher self, what questions should I ask Jon?

[00:23:51] And I listened to the answers, which I loved, and I wrote them down. And I think this is my first episode, this whole season where I've done this. So this is fun for me. But I wrote down, "You're talking to someone who was at the highest levels of service, sacrifice, and leadership." So thank you again for your service, and that's so awesome.

[00:24:09] My human side was like, "I want to talk to him about the human side of the military," which I feel like we've done. But a question that came up, I hope you're comfortable answering this however you want to answer, I wrote down, you've seen the United States evolve-- or maybe not evolve-- politically, socially, culturally. What do you believe is the greatest challenge we face today, not just in policy, but in spirit?

[00:24:31] Jon: Oof. That's a loaded question.

[00:24:34] Kate: It is. That's why I'm like, say what you want about it, because offline, I'm sure there's more we could say. And this is Rawish, but also I think that's part of the thing too, is not that any of us-- here's someone, you have no fear what you've done. You may see fears [Inaudible] maybe public speaking. There's cancel culture. There's all these things.

[00:24:55] But also, some people have died because of things that they've said in this climate. So it is scary, but however you want to answer that. But I'll just say for me, I said to my friend the other day, "When I was younger, I always thought the country would get better, not worse."

[00:25:12] And in some ways it has. And maybe because I'm in Santa Monica right now and my walk to and from the beach, I see more homeless people than housed people outside of multimillion dollar businesses and homes. And I saw the same in DC 20 years ago when I was getting my degree in journalism.

[00:25:33] These things hurt my heart because I am a humanitarian, and I don't understand why there's people with billions of dollars who will never spend all of it, and then the millions of children who go to sleep hungry every night in America. So this isn't me hating. This is just like, this is what's happening.

[00:25:51] I would like to not see it or pretend it doesn't exist, but it does. And you and I are doing work to help raise the vibration of the world. So I guess just anything you want to share from your perspective. Because my heart hurts, and there's also some good here. I don't know. I'll let you--

[00:26:09] Jon: I think you hit the nail on the head. There's definitely some good, and there's some things that have gotten better. But I would say, the part that hurts my heart the most-- yes, what you just mentioned, that definitely hurts. My kids, I'll take them out for ice cream, and I'll get them all the same ice cream.

[00:26:26] I don't ask them. I just, "Hey, you're all getting chocolate, or you're all getting vanilla." And then they'll complain. And I'm like, "Hey, if you guys are complaining about the flavor of your ice cream, your life is pretty good."

[00:26:38] Kate: Yeah.

[00:26:39] Jon: If you're complaining about ice cream, then you're not complaining about the fact that you don't have a roof over your head or that you don't have shoes on your feet. And I try to explain that to them, and that's normally when I see the light bulbs go off in their little minds.

[00:26:54] So yes, I do feel that homelessness, poverty, multiple forms of poverty-- there's all sorts of different forms-- that is definitely something that hurts my heart. The other side that hurts my heart is the divisiveness in this country. And here's the thing, is I understand both sides.

[00:27:17] And I understand that if you grew up in a certain part of the country, rural America, and you grew up on a farm and this is what you did, and this is how you lived, you may have one political and religious way of thinking. And then if you grew up in inner city Detroit or something, and you had troubles with X, Y, and Z, the troubles are different.

[00:27:45] The perspectives are going to be different. But that doesn't mean we're not human and that we can't come together rather than fighting one another. And I think the biggest part of that is social and news media. Social and news media, they highlight the bad stuff. If it bleeds, it leads. And I know you're a journalist, so I hope I'm not insulting you here, but you've probably seen it.

[00:28:10] And they capitalize on tearing. If you're on one side, they're going to tear up the other. Fox News tears up liberals. CNN tears up conservatives. And I think there's actually more people in the middle or closer to the middle than there are on the extreme sides of either side, and the divisiveness is what really makes me sad. It's funny, that divisiveness has torn up families that I-- torn up parts of my family. And it tears up friendships. If you've been long time friends and then somebody comes out politically viewing something differently than you, that friendship can end, which is ridiculous. You have to look at the human side.

[00:28:55] Coming back to what you asked at the very beginning of the show, humanness and humanity, if we could just take a step back and focus on what we have in common, more so than what we have different, I think that this country and this world would be a better place. And that's one of the things, again, what we try to focus on in my show, Men Talking Mindfulness, what we have in common. What we have in common is humanity.

[00:29:19] Kate: I think right now it's just at such a heightened state, and with people having rights taken away, for instance. So I think everyone can agree on that. But that's when it's gotten extra dicey, because it is when it becomes a human rights issue or an identity rights issue and things like that.

[00:29:35] So it makes it extra heated. But I've never asked this question to someone who dedicated 24 years of his life protecting and serving this great country. And so does it hit differently for you, or is that, oh, that's just something I did? Again, I've never asked anyone with your perspective, because it's one thing people are complaining, but I'm like, "Dude, like you literally, and at the highest level served for 24 years." So your opinion holds a little bit more weight because you were serving the country.

[00:30:08] Jon: Right. We talked about disappointment five minutes ago, and I'll say I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed in the country.

[00:30:15] Kate: Oh.

[00:30:16] Jon: Yeah.

[00:30:17] Kate: Me too.

[00:30:17] Jon: Yeah. I'm not necessarily disappointed in any one side. I'm disappointed in where we as a country are. And I really hope that--

[00:30:25] Kate: Say more about that. What disappoints you the most?

[00:30:28] Jon: Again, that divisiveness. I think we are at a precipice, on the verge of one or the other. We're either going to go down a road that ends up potentially separating America in one way or the other, or we're going to realize, hey, America is better than this, and we're going to start to come together.

[00:30:53] But yeah, disappointed is my word. And specifically as a veteran, I'm disappointed in where we are considering the brothers and sisters that we've lost to get to this point. Those brothers and sisters that we've lost, I don't think fought for what we currently are.

[00:31:16] Kate: Oh God. That just hurt my soul. That really hurts. Thank you for just being honest and sharing. It lends itself to my next question that came through, which I need right now. So I'm like, "Give me a little tip here."

[00:31:31] I wrote down that you are pushed to your limits and failure was not an option. What inner quality did you rely on? So even right now, when I'm feeling this disappointment or you have those-- it is. It's so heartbreaking. What inner quality can we lean on or that you did lean on when it could have been life or death?

[00:31:50] Jon: Yeah. I think probably the biggest inner quality that I leaned on was I have been through hard things before and got knocked down time and time again. I have failed. When I failed, I got back up and tried again and tried again and tried again. I tried to get into the Naval Academy out of high school. Got denied.

[00:32:15] Ended up enlisting in the Navy, and then got into the Naval Academy a year plus later. I've tried to do multiple things that I ended up not achieving, and I got knocked down. I have a failed marriage. I was disappointed in myself for that because I viewed it as a failure.

[00:32:33] And ultimately, resilience is what I think came up for me, is, "Hey, I have been knocked down before, and I will get knocked down again." But every time you get knocked down, you have to find something inside of you that's going to help you to get back up. I speak about resilience regularly, and a very heart wrenching story that I tell, it's not about me.

[00:32:59] It's about this guy, Derek Redmond. And Derek Redmond was a sprinter in the early nineties. He ran for the UK. Ran the quarter mile, so one lap around the track. And he went to the Olympics Barcelona in 1992, and he was expected to not only win the gold medal, but potentially break the world record.

[00:33:18] And he had been training his whole life for this moment, 400 meters, right around 41, 42 seconds of effort. He had been training his whole life for this. And he had gone through the Olympic trials to get to the Olympics. He had gone through all the preliminary races to get to the finals. And he gets to the finals, and he takes off, and he's on pace to win the goal.

[00:33:43] He's looking fantastic. And about 175 yards in or 175 meters, he tears his hamstring, and all the cameras zoom in on him, again, because he was the favorite. He goes down hard on the track and everybody else finishes the race, and he's still down on the track.

[00:34:02] And at this point, Derek had had a choice, and that choice was, hey, I could sit here on the track and have the medical providers come out with a stretcher and take me off of the track. Or they could come up to me, put their arm around me, and let me hobble off the track. Or he could even stand up and hobble off the track by himself.

[00:34:21] But he doesn't. He stands up, and he hobbles. This story always makes me emotional. He hobbles the entire rest of the race in his lane. And about 150 meters from the end or so, maybe 125, you see this man break out from the crowd onto the track and help Derek finish. And it's Derek's father.

[00:34:49] And I'll send you the video after this. It makes me cry every time I see it. But that, I think, one Derek got back up when he didn't have to. And not only did he get back up, but he got up, finished the race in his lane. So that's resilience. And then his father breaking his way through the crowd, through the security onto the track to help his son finish that race, to me, that's a fantastic sign of commitment to your family and compassion.

[00:35:21] So I would say, resilience is, to me, one of the most powerful attributes that you can have in working towards achieving your goals, along with vulnerability that I mentioned before, and asking for help. So that was, again, though Derek didn't ask for help, he accepted the help when his father came out there and helped him the rest of the way through the race.

[00:35:51] So yeah, that's, to me, when I look back on my life and I see the obstacles that I've overcome and the times I've been knocked down, but not only the times I've been knocked down, but the times I've gotten back up, that has given me, faith in my own resilience. And I think that's what you need, is, one, the resilience itself. And then two, the ability to look back and say, "Hey, you know what? I've faced this, and I've gotten knocked down in the past, and I've gotten back up, and I can do it again.

[00:36:23] Kate: Thank you for sharing that story. A theme that's coming up for me is redefining or reframing what it means to win. And as you're sharing that Olympic track story, I'm thinking of you and your relationships, where you could have never dated again after your divorce.

[00:36:41] And without knowing the details of that divorce or how or why it ended, and it doesn't matter, but not only did you put yourself back out there, you put yourself back out there in the workplace where she could have said, "Ew, I am not interested." Or, "I'm going to your equivalent of HR or whatever." And then even in that shared space, things could not have worked out with her.

[00:37:03] And fortunately they have, and you have three beautiful children, and life is, grand. Maybe not every day, but overall. It's so funny, you're talking to a, right now, unmarried person by choice, and as challenging as being in the military and Navy Seal is, I think those of you who take on marriage and children are even braver. And you do so willingly, and there's no pension.

[00:37:32] Jon: That's right.

[00:37:36] Kate: For me, here I am talking to a Navy Seal. There's not a ton of you, and tons of people are married with children, but that almost seems like a braver thing to do.

[00:37:47] Jon: Oh my gosh, all the time people ask me, "What's the toughest thing you've ever done?" Expecting me to tell a Navy Seal story, and I tell them time and time again being married with children. That is by far the hardest thing I've ever done.

[00:38:03] Kate: Ooh.

[00:38:03] Jon: Yeah.

[00:38:04] Kate: Ooh. I just got goosebumps. I feel you. I give it to you all. I feel like you just answered the question, but again, no right or wrong answers. I wrote down what-- I think you just answered it. What's been a gritty risk you've taken personally? I think you just answered it.

[00:38:22] Jon: That's it. That's it. 100%. There are other ones, but yeah, they all pale in comparison.

[00:38:31] Kate: Yeah. I'm very intuitive, and I get downloads all the time, so an image that my mind just showed me from my favorite movie, American Beauty, Ricky Ftstz, who lived next door and was he a Navy Seal, the gentleman who lived next door who killed Kevin Spacey's character? I don't know what line of service he was in.

[00:38:49] Jon: I don't remember. And I've always had question. Is he actually who killed Kevin Spacey? Is it ever clearly defined that's who it was? Yeah.

[00:38:59] Kate: I just had goosebumps with that too. Ooh.

[00:39:02] Jon: But I don't remember. I remember him being in the military. I want to say he was a Marine, but I don't remember off the top of my head.

[00:39:08] Kate: I think you're right. I think you are right. And he really led with that. He was always just like, "I'm so and so." I think he was a Marine. And you saw how he clearly went through some things and treated his son terribly, as we all saw. How do you think you've been able to go through that really intense training and still have that soft side where you're teaching men mindfulness?

[00:39:32] You have a beautiful marriage. You have three beautiful children. You're getting ice cream. Do you sometimes struggle? And maybe you do need those moments alone in mindfulness where that rough, tough, who you had to be maybe comes out. How do you balance all of it? Because that's a lot of different roles that you had to play simultaneously. Oo.

[00:39:52] Jon: Yeah. Perfect question. I'll say that's one of the parts about being a parent that's so hard. And I'm sure other people will agree, but this is my personal experience. Commander Macaskill does come out quite often as a dad. Instead of dad, Commander Macaskill comes out.

[00:40:08] "Hey, it's time to get into the car. Get your shoes on. Let's go." And sometimes, again, I teach mindfulness and I teach taking a breath and pausing before you lose your temper. But I'm also a human being, and I've lost my temper. I'm not proud about it. Never laid a hand on my kids. I will admit I've spanked them, but I've never laid a hand on them in any other abusive way.

[00:40:35] But I am learning still. I'm a work in progress. I'm under construction, and I'm getting better about it. Mindfulness has definitely helped. But I'll tell you what helps the most with this particular challenge of mine, is when my kids tell me-- They tell me, "Hey, dad. I'm just a kid."

[00:41:00] Kate: Oh.

[00:41:01] Jon: Yeah. Or they'll appoint-- my eldest, she's eight. She's asked me before. She's like, "Daddy, what do you do now for a living?" Because she was young when I was still active duty. And I tell her, "I teach mindfulness and meditation." And then she'll say, "Why?" I am like, "I teach people how to handle stress and handle their temper." And she's like, "That's funny, because you lose your temper."

[00:41:26] So kids are an incredible mirror, and that is probably what has taught me more about myself than anything else. And there have definitely been times when I've said, "I'm disappointed in myself for the way that I lost my temper." And that's coming back full circle to asking for help. I have to turn to my wife and say, "Hey, babe. I need help. What am I doing wrong?"

[00:41:50] Or I have to turn to-- I still go to therapy regularly because I believe in the power of therapy, not just to fix problems, but to help maintain. And I'll go to my therapist and say, "Hey, I'm struggling with my temper and aggression." And I think a lot of veterans will probably tell you the same. I think a lot of parents will tell you, but the communities that I served in, or community that I served in rewarded aggression.

[00:42:17] They wanted you to be somebody who could bring that aggression out in a tempered way. And here I am now needing to be soft and nurturing. I say soft. I don't mean in a negative way. Nurturing, caring, and sometimes it's tough for me to tap into that. But I'm learning. I'm  learning.

[00:42:42] Kate: I appreciate your honesty, and I have so much compassion for you because we all play these different roles in our lives. And throughout our lives, we change identities and things like that. And I think of even just myself on stage or on TV, and you dial it up. You're just like, woo.

[00:42:58] And that's what you're trained to do. And you come down and you step into a different role off camera, if you will. But nobody's life is on the line. If I do QVC and sales aren't great, nobody's dying. If I flubbed my live shot in TV news, nobody's dying.

[00:43:17] And with you, it's totally different stakes. Not just your life, but other people's lives and the country's life, if you will. It's so much responsibility. So I really give it to you because to have to go from something that's so ingrained, and then you're out of that line of work and then teaching something different, and then being a father, I really give it to you.

[00:43:39] And for trying and not just succumbing to, well, that's just how I am or how it is. And then your children suffer, or wife suffers, and ultimately you suffer. And so I give it to you for taking this on and so bravely and so boldly, and I can't imagine the-- again, I talk about the homeless people outside of the White House or a 10-million-dollar home. Yours is just as jarring, the roles you've had to switch into.

[00:44:07] Jon: Yeah, it's a challenge for sure. I've been retired for five years, and it's still a challenge. I remember when I came back from my first deployment, we had lost a lot of guys, and I went to rent a car-- this is a personal anecdote, but I went to rent a car, and I went to pay with my debit card, and the guy was like, "Hey, we don't accept debit cards."

[00:44:35] I was like, "Just run the card, man. It's just like a credit card." He's like, "I'm sorry, we don't accept debit cards." I was like, "Dude, just run the card." He said, "I'm sorry, I can't do that." And I lost my temper. I lost it. Again, not proud of this, but I said some colorful language to this guy, and he's like, "You know what? You're not renting a car from me. You can leave, sir." And that was definitely the aggression that, again, I'd gotten rewarded for just a few days before.

[00:45:09] And then we had lost guys. I'd flown home with the bodies of two of my guys, two of the-- they weren't under me, but two of them. One of them was serving under me, but the other one was equivalent. And I'd just flown home with them, and there was a lot on my mind.

[00:45:24] And this guy is telling me, "Hey, I can't run your debit card," which is his role. That's his job. And that was the standard, and I lost it with him. And that I still think about to this day. I'm like, "Okay, I can't do that. I cannot do that in the civilian world. I cannot do that with my friends. I cannot do that with my family. It's not acceptable." Even though it had been acceptable in the battlefield just a couple days before.

[00:45:50] Kate: Wow. I appreciate you being so honest with me because I think sometimes, we just-- most people will just look at you as, oh my God, a Navy Seal, and all the positives, which there's so many, without looking at Jon, the human, the person, and your struggles.

[00:46:06] And certainly people know some of what you go through, but it almost doesn't occur to them that you struggle at times. We all do. Or that you go through these things or that you have to go from such extremes and are expected to, in the name of being a man, do so "perfectly," if you will.

[00:46:23] What was your childhood like that set you up to even want to take this path? Because I think so many of our career choices and our romantic choices are to heal childhood wounds.

[00:46:35] Jon: Oh my gosh. Ooh, we're going down a path here. All right. So I was very blessed in my childhood. Had wonderful parents. Still have wonderful parents. They're still alive today. They're in their early 80s and are just superstars. Anyhow, wonderful parents, three older, beautiful sisters. Beautiful outside and in. And then a younger brother. Fantastic younger brother.

[00:47:01] Couldn't have asked for better siblings. So I was incredibly blessed. I did well academically and athletically, and my family praised me for that. So I became a praise junkie. I needed to be praised. I needed to have that dopamine hit. I needed to feel validated.

[00:47:22] And I will say quite honestly, I think that played into my wanting to be a Seal. I thought, okay, what's one of the toughest things out there? And if I do it, people are going to respect me. And I think that came from being a praise Junkie and, quite honestly, probably having a little insecurity.

[00:47:40] And that, becoming a Navy Seal helped me to feel confident in my abilities. It helped to validate me as a person to myself, and validating myself. And I think this is where a lot of special operators actually struggle, is when they get out. They may have gone into the special operations community for their own demons, like you mentioned.

[00:48:10] And they served well. They were fantastic operators, but deep down, I think for some there's still an insecurity, and they got used to feeling important. And then they leave the military, they leave the special operations community, and they don't have that. They're not wearing the Special Operations or Special Forces tab anymore.

[00:48:37] They're not wearing the Navy Seal Trident on their chest anymore. And they walk into a coffee shop and people see them as average Joe. And I think that's difficult for a lot of us, is we joined to overcome this-- I had this guy-- sorry, I'm going down the same path, but I had coffee with him yesterday, and I told him this story, and he was like, "Oh yeah, I did the same thing."

[00:49:00] He was an army EOD tech. And he said, "It's like when you join this special operations community, you go from the backseat of a car into the front seat." Remember how when you're a kid, you rode in the backseat and then the first time you were able to ride in the front seat, you're like, "Woo, I'm important. Look at me."

[00:49:19] So you go to the front seat in the car, but there's this other version of you still sitting in the backseat. It's still there. That insecure side of you, it's still there in the backseat. And then you retire, and that insecurity is like, "Hey, guess what? I'm still here." And you haven't had to face it the whole time.

[00:49:37] And then, whoa, there it is. It's the demon or the monkey on your back. Wow. I think I'm sharing a lot more with you, Kate, than I've shared on any podcast. So anyhow, yeah, there's a level of insecurity that I think came from my childhood. I, again, did well academically and athletically, but I wasn't one of the cool kids, wasn't one of the rich kids.

[00:49:58] And as blessed as I was, I always wanted to be one of those cool kids and rich kids, and I never was. And yeah, I think that might've been part of the reasons that I did what I did.

[00:50:12] Kate: Thank you. You're making me emotional I think because you're speaking to the season that I've been in, which has a bit about self-validation. And it's hard because we have bills to pay, and you see how much I care about my show and my guests in these conversations. And I know a lot of people, most-- I don't really know any who go as deep as I do because this is my jam, and it's because I can't stand the shallow, superficial crap going on in the world.

[00:50:40] And I have felt emotionally abandoned in my own family. So my guests have become my family. Thank you. And I'm just sobbing because this is so real for me. And we all have these insecurities, and we want to be validated. And it's hard too when you see people who are maybe doing crappy work, in my opinion, or just this shallow-- that's our world now on TikTok, and these people are making millions off of just crappy or talking crap about a politician or whatever it is.

[00:51:11] And I get so disheartened some days, and it's like you've said. I feel like you're bringing out my inner Navy Seal that's like, "Just keep going. Just keep going." And you have to believe in yourself, even on the days you don't, or you want to throw in the towel or give up. Like you, it wasn't really an option at times.

[00:51:27] Again, I'm like, "At least you're not in battle." You're going to be okay. But you're really just, I think, touching on something that all of us experience in different ways. And people don't talk about it enough because everyone's so obsessed with being the "expert" and being perceived a certain way.

[00:51:47] And big girls don't cry, and Navy Seals don't act-- whatever it is. And I just want to throw all that out the window because this is like the real, and then we get to learn from each other, but only by being honest and telling stories that have impacted us that we don't normally share for whatever reason.

[00:52:05] It's BS, and I'm tired of it. But thank you because you just gave me such a release, what speaks to the quality of who you are. And I feel like I would've met a much different Jon, even five years ago if I came into your office for coffee, for instance. I think you would've been more shut down, and I wouldn't have been crying in your office. That would not have been allowed.

[00:52:26] Jon: Guarantee you would not have been.

[00:52:32] Kate: So see what a beautiful-- this is such a beautiful moment. I'm taking my stuff, but it speaks to who you are that I'm able to be who I am right now. So thank you.

[00:52:42] Jon: Yeah. Well, your vulnerability is a sign of strength, like I said. So amazing for you to share what you just shared with me. So yeah, thank you for that.

[00:52:51] Kate: Yeah. Thank you. Okay, we'll wrap up here soon. I think I just had this one-- well, no, I actually started with that, about this ordinary moment that's still with you. So I think of-- and however you want to answer this, because I'm like, "Gosh." And I feel like now you're a coaching client of mine.

[00:53:06] I love asking this question at the end of sessions where I just ask something to the extent of, what'd you learn about yourself? Or maybe you told me about a time you lost your temper. And I say, "What'd you learn about yourself? But maybe in the past couple of years, or even in this last hour, what have you learned about yourself, or what's a big takeaway from your journey that is just-- whatever's coming to mind right now that you want to share. Because you brought up so much in me.

[00:53:31] Jon: Yeah. You've definitely brought out a lot of me. I should have guessed it when the name of the show is Rawish. I didn't anticipate going down a lot of these paths. But yeah, no, I don't know that I learned anything about myself that I didn't already know, but I certainly told you things that I've only told my therapist.

[00:53:54] Kate: What an honor.

[00:53:57] Jon: There's, I think-- what is it? I'm forgetting the name of the-- window, they call it. It's quadrants. It's a quadrant that is, what you know about yourself and others know about you. What others know about you, but you don't know about yourself, so your blind spots. What you know about yourself that nobody knows about you. So it's the stuff that you don't show anybody to the world.

[00:54:24] And then the last quadrant is what nobody knows about you. You don't know about yourself and others don't know about you, but it's there. And sometimes that's the part that you need to go to a therapist to unpack, to reveal. And I think you just helped me to reveal some of those completely unknown parts. So thank you for that. I'm having a therapy session this afternoon, so I'm probably going to bring this up.

[00:54:53] Kate: I love that. Thank you. I'm so passionate about this and all this work, and I spend so much time alone reflecting and processing and really just learning about myself and becoming a fine-tuned instrument. The sharpened sword, if you will. So I'm ready for combat because I think I'd accepted that the world is not candy land.

[00:55:11] There's a lot to navigate out there. But I like talking to you though, because when I walk down Wilshire Boulevard and there's some things going on, I'm just like, "I'm not in the battlefield." And I'll think of you and flex my inner Navy Seal, but with a twist, a little softer. But yeah, you've helped me so much, and I just feel so honored that you were so honest with me and my audience because it helps all of us just grow and expand. And if it's from someone like you, or just from you, it makes it that much more impactful. So thank you. You're doing the work. Whether we want to call it God's work or whatever we want to call it, you're showing up and doing it, and really a template and it that blueprint for all of us. So thank you.

[00:55:59] Jon: Thank you, Kate. Thanks for the questions. Those were definitely deeper questions than I've been asked on a lot of the podcasts that I've been on. Not that any of them are necessarily bad, but this was deeper than I thought we were going to go. And I loved it. Going inside is something that can be really scary, but I think it's valuable to do more often than we do. So thank you for the questions that weren't just surface level.

[00:56:24] Kate: Yeah. Thank you so much. Just a quick on our way out, because I genuinely care about this because I'm so proud of you and honored to know you and have this conversation. What makes you really proud of yourself?

[00:56:35] Jon: Hmm. Yeah. I think it comes back to the part that can disappoint me the most, and that's being a dad. My kids and my beautiful bride are my driving force behind everything that I do. And I don't know that I have anything that I can point toward that makes me prouder. So yeah, I'm proud of myself for the dad that I can be and the dad that I strive to be.

[00:57:04] Kate: Mm. Thank you so much. I'm just giving you the biggest hug. I feel like I can go run a marathon now. Thank you so much. We're going to put all of your info in the show notes so everyone can follow you and listen to your podcast. We can all have more mindful moments and learn from one another, but thanks for leading us on this journey. It's such a pleasure.

[00:57:25] Jon: The pleasure was all mine. I go back to you thanking me for my service. I'd a friend who came up with a response to that recently. When somebody says, "Thank you for your service," he started saying, "Thanks for being worth it." So Kate, thanks for being worth it, and thanks for this show. I appreciate it.

[00:57:43] Kate: Oh, I love that. I will hold that close to my heart. I've never heard that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Jon. And thanks to all of you for being here. I'm going to go grab a tissue and go for a long walk. Thank you all for being here. We love and appreciate you. Thank you, Jon, again, and we'll see you next time on Rawish. Bye, everybody.