Pilot Your Power: Flip Your Perspective with Michelle “MACE” Curran

[00:00:00] Michelle: I didn't want to be just an Air Force pilot. I wanted to be a fighter pilot. The odds were very stacked against me. It's super competitive.

[00:00:07] Kate: How do you even take this on without being absolutely terrified?

[00:00:11] Michelle: When it comes down to its most basic level, you are part of a high performing team of humans. I was Michelle at home and then I put on my flight suit, walk in the squadron. Now I'm Mace, known by my call sign. No matter what your rank or your title is, if you mess up in the air, we're going to talk about it when we land. When I came in, only 2% of fighter pilots were women. Now it's close to 5%.

[00:00:32] Kate: Okay, so still small.

[00:00:34] Michelle: About halfway through my time there, I also went through a divorce.

[00:00:37] Kate: Oh, girl.

[00:00:38] Michelle: I decided to invest everything in becoming good at that, just like I had learned to become good at flying. I wasn't just going to show up and half [Bleep] it and get on a stage and be like, "Cool jets. Isn't that awesome?"

[00:00:51] Kate: You've had career success and excitement for nine lifetimes. What are you most proud of?

[00:00:59] Hey, there. Welcome back to Rawish with Kate Eckman. I'm doing a first for me today in 20, 25 years of interviewing people all over the world. I have never interviewed a fighter pilot for the US military, so let's just bring her in right now. Michelle Mace Curran, welcome to Rawish.

[00:01:18] Michelle: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be the first, and that's a long time to not have interviewed one of us, so I'm honored.

[00:01:23] Kate: Oh, thank you so much. I've interviewed all walks of life from the biggest celebrities in the world to juvenile delinquents in the Cook County Courthouse in Chicago when I was getting my master's degree. And they were more fascinating than most celebrities. And so when I thought about having you on and being a pilot, I think first of all, so many of us that have fear of flying in the first place.

[00:01:47] And then I think of horrible accidents, like what happened to Kobe Bryant when he was in the helicopter. And I feel like you are just taking on a collective fear and even deciding to be in the military and be in the Thunderbirds, something so prestigious, but also terrifying at the same time.

[00:02:09] And so you think back to when you were a little girl or thought about going down this career path and being able to choose anything in the world. What made you choose this career path build with fear?

[00:02:22] Michelle: Yeah. So it was a little bit of an indirect route as far as my motivations for the career decisions that I made. But they line up with multiple things. I grew up in a rural part of Wisconsin, a really small town, about 4,000 people. Not a military family, not an aviation family. So I just did not have exposure to those things as even options.

[00:02:42] I just didn't really know much about them. But I did grow up living out in the country, did a lot of exploring outside. I was really adventurous. I was climbing trees, jumping off of stuff. I was a thrill-seeking child. So I loved rollercoasters. I wanted to travel the world. And as I got into high school and I'm about maybe junior year, my parents are like, "Hey, you have really good grades. Let's start discussing potential scholarship opportunities."

[00:03:09] So I was very shy and introverted growing up, but then it was almost a dichotomy because I was also very driven. So that's where the straight A student part of the equation came into effect. So I look at all the options. Long story short, Air Force ROTC rose to the top.

[00:03:28] They had opportunities where you could essentially get your entire degree paid for at a four-year university. You would have a job waiting for you on the other side. You got to travel the world. You got to be part of this team doing cool, exciting things. So it's just like, okay, this seems like a good fit. But at that time, I wanted to be an FBI agent.

[00:03:48] Kate: Interesting.

[00:03:49] Michelle: People are always like, why? And I would always joke, well, I liked to watch the X-Files growing up. Maybe that was like the influence-- very realistic portrayal of what FBI agents do. But then I actually saw a study somewhere recently that because of the X-Files and-- I can't mess up her name. It's Dana Scully, the main character.

[00:04:13] Kate: I think so. Yeah.

[00:04:14] Michelle: So it's the male-female partners that are the bad [Bleep] in that show. There was a massive influx of girls pursuing law enforcement and STEM careers because of that character because it was unheard of the '90s when she came on the scene. Anyway, I digress.

[00:04:32] So apparently I was influenced along with a bunch of other young women. So I get to college. I'm on an ROTC scholarship. I'm a criminal justice major, and my plan is to do four years in the Air Force after that to pay back the time I owe for the scholarship. I just got probably doing special investigations, something that relates to the FBI. And then I'll get out, I'll apply to the FBI academy. I'll be a competitive applicant because I have military experience, because I have a criminal justice degree.

[00:05:01] Obviously, that did not happen. So halfway through college, we go visit an Air Force base with my ROTC detachment, and I get to see two fighter jets taking off one after the other, full afterburner, up close to go to a training mission. And that was the first time I'd seen a jet really up close. And it was just a visceral reaction. Goosebumps, grabbing my friend next to me just like, "This is the coolest thing I've ever seen. I have to go do that."

[00:05:33] And that was the thing that sparked the inspiration to pursue a pilot slot instead of going along this path to do four years, get out and go to the FBI. So I put my name in the hat for a pilot slot, got one, graduated and commissioned as an officer the same day. Went off to pilot training in the Air Force from there.

[00:05:55] But then because I was a thrill seeker, because I was super driven, and because I had seen two fighter jets take off as my spark of inspiration, I didn't want to be just an Air Force pilot. I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Obviously that worked out, but the odds were very stacked against me. It's super competitive.

[00:06:14] Kate: And why fighter pilot? Because it was the best of the best, or you don't do anything halfway?

[00:06:21] Michelle: Yes to both of those things, but I also just love the idea of going upside down and pulling Gs and being super maneuverable, and that just sounded super fun. Turns out that's just a part of the job and it's a lot more complicated and difficult than just flying a jet upside down, but I didn't really know that at that time. So it just was really appealing overall.

[00:06:44] Kate: Did you ever throw up?

[00:06:45] Michelle: Never. I've never gotten motion sick and thrown up. The people in my pilot training class that struggled with that, I had a lot of empathy for them because it is a hard course already, and in the heat-- we went to pilot training in Mississippi, and it's so hot and humid, and the course is just so hard.

[00:07:02] You're drinking from a fire hose. It's just overload of information. And then to be not feeling your best, almost every single flight, I don't know how they did it. But I was lucky enough to not have to deal with that.

[00:07:13] Kate: Thanks for saying that because even right now I'm experiencing discomfort because this temporary home doesn't have AC, and I have a bright light in my face, and I just feel like I'm hot and sweaty. And you're reminding me, I was not doing any fighter pilot training, but just as a news reporter, being up in a helicopter for the first time in Southwest Florida and being so hot and nauseous and my photographer saying, "All right, you're ready to do your standup? Turn around and talk on camera."

[00:07:40] And I turned around and threw up, and it was so embarrassing, but part of it is because I was so hot. And even right now I feel a little off and woozy because I'm hot, and I'm sitting still. So it shows you were made for that unlike some of your counterparts, because there's so much of that that even right now, I feel off just sitting still because I'm hot, and it makes you nauseous.

[00:08:02] And all I can even think to even ask you, just fear, fear, fear keeps coming up. And I know you speak a lot about it now in your other career, but how do you even take this on without being absolutely terrified? Do you just block it out? I'll let you answer, but it doesn't even seem logical that you can do something like this and not be tinkling in your pants or saying, "No, thank you."

[00:08:28] Michelle: I think some of it is being young and dumb, young and naive. But for real. Because you think about the stuff we do as young, in our early 20s, mid-20s, and then I think about my risk assessment now being in my late 30s. It's so different. My willingness to put myself at risk for physical harm has gone down substantially.

[00:08:52] And I think that's true for most people, especially for guys. Notorious for taking risks when they're young, driving a motorcycle 100 miles an hour or whatever it is. And then later they're like, "I would never do that now." So I think there's some of that, but I also was just super goal driven, and I was like, "I want this more than I've wanted anything in my entire life, to do well enough in this program to become a fighter pilot."

[00:09:16] And so I was so fixated on what do I have to do to perform. What is the checklist I need to be running? What are the parameters I need to be hitting? It's just very task-oriented, that there's really no time-- there's no time to have the pinch me moment of, holy [Bleep], I can't believe I'm doing this. But there was also no time to think about fear.

[00:09:37] Kate: What was your main desire in wanting to be a fighter pilot?

[00:09:43] Michelle: I think it really was that idea of this is like the hardest, most challenging, most prestigious. It's like the best of the best in my mind. If I'm going to do something, I always want to do it at the highest level, sometimes to a fault. And I think that was especially true then. I was a little bit of a perfectionist, straight A student.

[00:10:08] I was my parents' golden child where I was the one they were always telling their friends about how proud they were, and I just high-performed, which causes other issues we can talk about. But at that point, I was just so driven. It's like fighter pilot or bust. Why would I want to do anything else if that's what everyone thinks is the best?

[00:10:28] Kate: Do you feel like you had something to prove?

[00:10:30] Michelle: Not at first, I would say. At first, it was just like, this seems really fun and exciting. I think once I got into that world and realized how few women there were, and as that started to get highlighted to me more and more by people around me, I was like, "Oh, this is a big deal." Not just because the statistics. When I came in, only 2% of fighter pilots were women. Now it's close to 5%.

[00:10:54] Kate: Okay, so still small.

[00:10:56] Michelle: Super small. I was regularly the only one in my training program, in my squadron. Occasionally, I would be one of two. So as that got highlighted to me more and more, and as I started to feel a little bit of lack of belonging in those units and in those classes, even if it wasn't intentional from the people around me, just systemic how things are built, language that's used, all the things. We can get into that.

[00:11:21] Then it became, now I want to prove you wrong. Now watch me. But I think that's how it displayed on the outside. But I still struggled with that a lot on the inside. There was also a lot of imposter syndrome, a lot of self-doubt, a lot of auditing how I showed up, overthinking everything I said and everything I did and how I reacted to people's jokes or comments.

[00:11:45] Just that hyper vigilance of how I react in this moment, how I present myself will determine everything about how I'm perceived in this career. And I just need to fit in with this team so bad that I don't inherently fit in with. And so it's so multifaceted. It's such a complex things.

[00:12:04] People will ask me a lot about the challenges of being a female fighter pilot specifically, and it's one of those things that can be very controversial, I guess, to talk about. Especially in today's political climate, you can very quickly get into, oh, you're playing the victim. Or, oh, it shouldn't matter. I don't care what your gender is. The jet doesn't care. The person you're dropping a weapon on doesn't care.

[00:12:27] And that's all accurate. But when it comes down to its most basic level, you are part of a high performing team of humans. And that is all about psychological safety. It is all about belonging, and there's so many nuances to it. And one of the things I really do like to be able to do now is to just speak openly about what that was like, because it's super nuanced.

[00:12:51] Kate: Yeah. And I'm deeply, deeply empathetic, for better or worse. Feels like a curse more than a gift half the time, and I'm feeling a younger version of you. And life is already so challenging enough in our 20s and young 20s, and we're just trying to figure out who we are and our identity.

[00:13:06] And then there's other challenges as a woman, as you know, especially in a male-dominated field and industry. But I can feel in my body right now, I was feeling the heat, and I've cooled off a little, so thank you, whatever happened there. I'm like, "Okay. She's got it. We've got this. She's flying. We're good."

[00:13:21] And then I'm feeling in my body stress, and I'm feeling immense pressure, and I'm feeling that because I have felt that much of my life until recently, like something to prove, for many reasons. And I've let that go, but I can feel the pressure. And again, because your identity was this good girl or like mom and dad shining star and the straight A students and this overachiever, and so the pressure to live up to their expectation or societal's expectation.

[00:13:47] And listen, you earned your spot there, male, female, black, white, gay, straight, whatever. But still, that I have to be the best to rep for women perhaps. So how does one go about managing as such a young person, the stress and the pressure, when you're doing something that can also take your life if you make a wrong move?

[00:14:09] Michelle: Yeah, I didn't do it well at first. I think a lot of my ability to manage it came with time and wisdom and a lot of hard-earned wisdom that was very painful to go through. And one of the reasons I like to talk about it now is to give that perspective to people who are experiencing that as they hear an interview like this, or as they read my book or whatever it is, because I think I could have done things differently, and I couldn't change the environment I was in.

[00:14:37] I couldn't change that there were so few women represented there. But I could take ownership of trying to show up more authentically and not being so afraid of what would happen if I did that. And I really do think that the vast majority of the people I worked with were good people who wanted me to be part of their team.

[00:14:57] I did well in the aircraft, so it wasn't like I wasn't meeting the standards or I was a liability. So I was already proving my credibility by learning the job. But where I really struggled was just like in my own head with that feeling of dressing up. I feel like I was putting on a fighter pilot costume to go to work and that I couldn't be who I actually was.

[00:15:18] I was Michelle at home and then I put on my flight suit, walk in the squadron, now I'm Mace, known by my call sign, and it's almost like an alter ego that I have to perform. And I think that can be a useful tool to generate courage at times. Beyonce used to use Sasha Fierce because she's naturally shy, and she's like, "When I'm on stage, I'm Sasha Fierce."

[00:15:41] I am powerful. I command this room. And she said in interviews that now she doesn't use Sasha Fierce anymore because that is truly who she is. She's grown into that persona. And so I think there is a time and a place where it can be helpful to fake it till you make it. But long term it's exhausting, and it's a sure recipe for burnout.

[00:16:02] And if you don't have the outlets and the support network around you and the people you can confide in that you can tell that you're doing that-- Beyonce gets on stage, she speaks openly probably to her friends and family like, "Okay, Sasha's here. We're going to go do this."

[00:16:18] But if you don't have those people where you can be like, I'm going to muster this courage, even though it's not really inherent in my personality, and it's just you internally struggling with it, it's easy to lose perspective on what's fact and what's not.

[00:16:31] And you can really start to go down that spiral of doubt and questioning if you deserve to be there. And that imposter syndrome, thinking everyone knows more than you. You're the only person that feels this way. I think something I could have done differently is to find mentors and talk to them about those feelings.

[00:16:49] I think that would've changed things so much because later I would see this. Everyone experienced that because it's such a high-pressure environment, maybe not the gender aspect, but that feeling of overwhelm and not being good enough and questioning themselves is pretty normal when you're a beginner in a super high-performance environment.

[00:17:08] So I think had I talked to people at that point, they would've been like, "Yeah, I felt the same way when I was a young wingman in my first squadron." Yeah, I felt the same way when I was a new flight lead. That's normal. Those mistakes you've made, everyone does that at first. You'll get better. It's fine. Just keep chugging along. But I was afraid to do that because it felt like a sign of weakness. And I didn't feel like I had the credibility to show weakness because I was trying to prove myself.

[00:17:34] Kate: Yeah, it's an exhausting, vicious cycle. And what you're speaking to is this performative persona that we all have had to put on from time to time as an athlete or as a performer or a pilot certainly, which you're an athletic performer in your own right. But I think there's something that's come to me recently in my journey, is that when my coach challenges me to just show up on social media as just myself, messy unkept hair, and just it being about the content.

[00:18:03] And I broke down recently and pushing back to her and saying like, it's hard for me to do that because just being me or simply being was never good enough. And I think we've all felt that sting, especially as women. And so it's like, we got to perform, and we got to put on this mask, if you will, and do all these things, or we won't be loved or feel safe or be good enough, and whose terms?

[00:18:26] And it's very, very painful, and it's taken me into my 40s to really get a grasp on this. And it makes me sad because like you, yes, I have performed and achieved at a high level, but at what cost? And then it's just you don't even feel fulfilled or you feel sad or then it's like, gosh, just being me is not good enough. People won't like me. Or if I don't show up looking beautiful, then people won't-- it's so layered and complex.

[00:18:52] And I guess, what was the shift for you where you started to leave some of that behind and be able to just show up more as Michelle, even as opposed to Mace and the high performer?

[00:19:04] Michelle: Yeah. So a lot happened at my first combat squadron in Japan where I was brand new going through all the things we just talked about. That was also a very isolating place to live. It's amazing place to visit, and living there is also very cool, but the culture is so different, and I didn't speak the language. And so I am very isolated from the people in Misawa in the city, the locals, because of the language barrier.

[00:19:28] So my whole world is made up of the people I work with. We all live on base. We all work together. Everyone, spouses, our friends, that's literally the only friends you have. I lived in a quadplex apartment. All four units were other pilots in my squadron. So there's some pros to that.

[00:19:47] Sometimes it's super fun. It's almost like being in college. People have really great parties and kids' birthday parties are fun. All the kids come together. There's really great community, but it also can feel like there's just no chance to escape, like there's no work-life separation.

[00:20:03] As work started to feel like more and more of a pressure cooker for me and more and more of forcing me to perform to be something that I wasn't, it would bleed over into how I showed up in these relationships with my friends, and there's really no outlet. I was there for three years. About halfway through my time there, I also went through a divorce.

[00:20:26] Kate: Oh, girl.

[00:20:27] Michelle: Let's throw that. How old am I at that point? I'm about 28, I would say, age-wise. And I'm going through all the things we talked about with the pressure and being type A and a perfectionist and all of that. And I put everything into my job, which affects your relationships. There's also some weird gender stuff to navigate there when you're living in a foreign country and all of the military spouses are wives, and so they all hang out in their friends, and that's such a good support community. But then when you're the one male spouse, it can be very tough lifestyle for a female fighter pilot married to a civilian. It's just so nuanced. So we had a lot of odds stacked against us. Long story short, we ended up getting divorced. That felt-- it wasn't even the loss of the relationship because I knew it was the right thing. We were high school sweethearts, and we were just going in two different directions, but it felt like a massive failure.

[00:21:21] That was the thing that almost broke me, calling my parents and having to tell them that-- because we grew up together. They knew his family and everything. Same small town. But even outside of that, I think objectively as society views it, divorce is a failure. It's the failure of a marriage. You don't go into a marriage thinking it's going to fail. And so that felt like I had been walking on eggshells, trying to navigate this career and never fail and never show weakness, and then this happens. And it's for everyone to see because I do live in this like fishbowl environment.

[00:22:01] Kate: Oh, boy.

[00:22:02] Michelle: So it was so many things. And I would say that was the only time in my life where I got to a point of-- it was situational because of what was happening, but I should have gone and talked to someone because I was definitely depressed.

[00:22:18] It was like, wake up, don't even want to go to work, don't want to do anything. Drive to the squadron and sit in my car and just sit there and be like, "How am I going to muster enough strength to walk in that building today and go to work?" And mind you, I'm going to fly a 30-million-dollar airplane where you mess things up and it has high repercussions.

[00:22:36] So it's just so high pressure. And so that was a really dark time for probably six months. I start to come out of that a little bit as my assignment there is wrapping up just as time passes. But I was still very much just all of this had happened in this location with these people in this unit. And I got my next assignment, and I went to Texas.

[00:22:58] And coming back to the US, I think, was really helpful because it did allow me to find a community outside of work. But also, the next unit I went to was so different than the one I had been in. The one in Japan, not to get into like too many nuances of how the Air Force is structured, but active duty, a lot of younger pilots, a lot of people trying to prove themselves, jockeying for position. So very type A.

[00:23:24] The stereotypes around fighter pilots, some of them were true in that squadron. Even though we were really good at what we did, there were some amazing people there. I get to my next squadron, and it's a reserve squadron. So most of the guys that worked there were part-time. A lot of them flew for the airlines when they weren't on status with the Air Force, and they were older.

[00:23:43] So many of them had done their time on active duty, maybe 10 to 15 years on active duty, and then went to the reserve side. So these are guys that are in their late 30s, maybe early 40s, have families, have life demands outside of work. Their priorities were so different that it felt like a lot less pressure, and there was no nothing to prove.

[00:24:10] So this ego jockeying for position thing was just not a thing there, and I couldn't put my finger on exactly one thing that made it so different. But when I showed up there, how I was welcomed and just that pressure to pretend I was something that I wasn't just wasn't there.

[00:24:30] Kate: Thank God.

[00:24:32] Michelle: It was coming up for a breath of air. Yeah. It was like I'd been underwater. I got to this new unit, and I finally broke the surface and took a big gasp of air, and I was like, "This is the right place for me at the right time." And that squadron was full of amazing people. I just grew so, so fast once I got there. And yeah, I know I've been on full transmit for 20 minutes now. You probably have more questions.

[00:24:58] Kate: No. Yeah, and I feel the restrictive energy in my body and the pressure of-- and I think so many of us do this. I'm more of a wear my heart on my sleeve, no shame, crying in public type of gal. But again, there's a time and space, and it really isn't appropriate for you, like you said, to show up and fly a 30-million-dollar jet and being crying. I imagine you'd be probably kicked out.

[00:25:27] So just the pressure, and I can feel just, as you're talking, the restrictive energy and how that weighs on you. It literally causes disease after a while, disease in the body from that high pressure stress. And so just all the ups and downs of navigating this career. And there's the high highs and the low lows personally and professionally, and the thrills.

[00:25:48] But how do you think this career really changed or shaped you? Because it was so many of these formative years, and I'm hearing some really good things. You're tough. If I need anyone, if I am hiring a bodyguard, I'm like, "I will call you."

[00:26:04] Michelle: Perfect.

[00:26:05] Kate: I'm going down a dark alley. Michelle Mace, come walk a sister down. Again, I know we're talking about the past, but I'm feeling so much stress and tension in my body. Oof.

[00:26:21] Michelle: Yeah. I was on active duty for 13 years, so that is from the time I graduate college until three years ago, so when I was 35. So you naturally grow so much during that time. I was going through that growth that I think everyone experiences during their late 20s, early 30s, but just in such a unique environment. Going in, having this conflicting personality of high achiever, but yet shy introvert, which isn't really rewarded in the fighter pilot culture.

[00:26:57] It's the extroverts. It's the loud people, the overly confident people that are naturally rewarded. I don't know that it was the best fit, honestly. I don't know that my dream really matched with my personality as well as it should have. But I was there. I made that decision. I wanted that. And then I had to figure out how to balance those two things. I almost break my career into three sections.

[00:27:20] The first part in Japan, struggle bus. So much learning happening, but painful learning. Get to Texas, rapid period of growth. I'm going through, I think, a lot of the self-discovery that people do around being 30 years old or so, where they find their confidence. They start to figure out who they are.

[00:27:41] They maybe care less about what other people think, all of those things. I started to get a little bit bold, and I started to push myself to make some bold choices, and I became hyper aware of when something would come along, like an opportunity, so say I get an email for some work opportunity and I have that initial feeling of like, "Ooh, I should do this, exciting. This is something cool." Immediately followed by fear and anxiety and all the reasons I might be judged if I do this and I might fail.

[00:28:10] And I had experienced that a lot in Japan, and I always defaulted towards, oh, I shouldn't do it because of these bad feelings. Because I'm so worried about performing and not being judged, and it's risky to put yourself out there to go after opportunities. I became really aware of that as I left that unit and went to the next one and had a little bit of distance and could look back and realized all the things I'd missed out on because of that fear.

[00:28:35] And so I was very intentional when I got to Texas that I became really aware of what that physiologically felt like, those moments. So I would notice them and then I would consciously make the decision that moved me towards my goals, not just was a response to the fear reaction. And I started to do that again and again, and it changed everything. And probably a year and a half, I was probably someone that people from Japan wouldn't even recognize.

[00:29:03] Kate: Yeah, yeah. But because of the deliberate choices that you made, and courageous. I'm hearing a lot of courage, and I want to get to the transition because you're no longer a fighter pilot, which people may be surprised by. You get in, you excel. You ultimately leave, and that takes a lot of courage.

[00:29:22] But before we leave, I just got to know one highlight where you're flying and you're inverted, and it's the flip side. And I just imagine from Top Gun, that scene where they're doing that upside down. And again, it's just a movie and it's Hollywood and the actors were actually doing it, but just take us inside there because most of us will never do this or want to do this. I don't even want to do it in a simulation. It terrifies me to think about. But what is that moment like? How do you feel it or describe it in the body? Oof.

[00:29:51] Michelle: Yeah. So to set that up just a tiny bit, I won't go on a long diatribe, but the third part of my career was the Thunderbirds. One of those bold decisions I decided to make while I was in Texas is I saw that the Thunderbirds were hiring, and I had that exact feeling that I described, excitement, like, oh, I actually qualify for this. I meet all the minimum requirements.

[00:30:13] Also, it's right timing in my career. Immediately followed by, am I good enough to do that type of flying? There are so many eyeballs on you. What if I fail? Not only is my fighter pilot community watching, but the American public is watching. Of course, I ended up applying, got hired.

[00:30:31] It felt like this massive victory overall of the trials and tribulations and decisions and bold moves I had gone through over the past six, seven years. I get there, I'm a seasoned fighter pilot at this point, and then I try to learn to fly in air shows, and it's just completely different.

[00:30:49] Very challenging. The risk is very high. The margins for error is very small, and then we get into some of what that flying is actually like, and that physical experience, and it is hard on the body, I think, is something that people don't realize. When you flip upside down in the F-16, it is not an airplane that's really designed for you to just hang upside down, inverted, and fly that way.

[00:31:14] Of course, it's built to be maneuverable, but if you fly in a civilian aerobatic airplane, they have a five point harness. Your shoulders are cinched down. Your waist is cinched down. Your body weight is distributed on those pressure points when you roll upside down. The F-16, all your body weight is held in by your lap strap, your seatbelt strap across your hips.

[00:31:36] So literally, when I would flip upside down, and then you have to push on the controls, push on the stick to stay there and not descend, I would get bruises across my hip bones. It's just not really designed to be super comfortable to do that. And then we look through a heads up display, which is that glass thing that's in the front of a jet as that display.

[00:31:57] It's all the green, like your airspeed, your altitude, where you're pointed, all of that. And to see those parameters, which you need to see while you're doing the maneuver even if you're inverted, your body extends, and you raise up a little bit in your seat when you're upside down. And so you actually go out of the field of view of the HUD, so you can't see it anymore.

[00:32:18] So in order to see it, you have to do this turtle thing with your neck. So you're hanging upside down, right hand on the stick, left hand on the throttle, all your weights on your hip bones, and then you're crunching your head down and forward to see the parameters of the maneuver so you know when to roll upright.

[00:32:35] It's really cool, but it's just really uncomfortable. A lot of that flying is so uncomfortable. The assignment itself though, is really cool. My first event for the public ever was the flyover for the Super Bowl. It's just insane stuff you're getting to do. You get to meet amazing people, everyone from hometown heroes who have saved someone's life to celebrities.

[00:33:00] You get to travel all over the place, see the entire country, and you're doing so in such a unique capacity. People seek you out, and they seek you out for inspiration, and you get to have just the most incredible interactions with people, especially as a female pilot.

[00:33:16] And I was the only one during that time. The little girls that would come up to me, my favorite part of the job by far. These probably, I would say five to 10-year-olds, very transformative age, but they're old enough that they really get that spark of inspiration. Parents would bring them up, and a lot of times they would be shy, and a lot of times they wouldn't initially connect the dots that the person they were meeting just flew that jet they just watched.

[00:33:41] So the parents would usually be like, "Hey, look, she just flew that. You know that jet snuck up and scared you or the one that spiraled up in the sky? That was her." You would see the light bulb moment happen and you would see that, this little 7-year-old suddenly sees what's possible for her in the world has expanded, that was the coolest thing ever. And it was the thing that made me pivot to what I'm doing now. Everyone talks about the crazy flying because that's such a cool visual that people see. The flying is a vehicle for inspiration.

[00:34:17] Kate: I never even thought of the choreography involved in something like that. I was getting Dancing with the Stars, was it's coming to mind, where the professionals make it look so easy and you don't watch and you don't really think about how it feels on their hips or what they're doing, the precision of it.

[00:34:37] So that's what I'm thinking as you're doing it, how cool that is. But then, like you said, what's even way more fascinating than even that is the possibilities that you are giving young girls and women. And that because of you, they dare to dream in a different way or not be scared of something or be strong and bold, even if you have to fake it till you make it, if you will.

[00:35:03] And I think that's what's special about you and your story too, is that now you literally are speaking to it. You're not just doing all the performing. You're talking about the behind the scenes of it, and you're not just like, "Yeah, I can do it." And I think that's my disconnect with a lot of speakers and some celebrities right now, is they're all saying something on stage, but then behind the scenes it's so out of alignment with their messaging.

[00:35:27] And so I appreciate you really talking about what was really going through your mind, and that's why I wanted to ask you, did you feel like you had something to prove? Because I think another thing that sadly happens is people look at "someone like you" and think like, oh, well, she has all these advantages or privileges, or she's just smart, or she's just pretty, or she's just brave, and they don't give you the credit that you deserve.

[00:35:54] Yes, all those things are true, but how much courage it takes to even sign up, even if you are young and dumb, your words. The courage it takes to keep going through a divorce and show up when you want to cry and hide. It's not like you're showing up in a cubicle as an accountant and you can cry in your cubicle while you crunch numbers.

[00:36:12] And then you're in this forward-facing career and position, and then all these little kids look up to you. And some days you've got it, and other days you want to cry in your pillow and you still have to play this role. I can imagine how exhausting that can be and feel. And then when you want to confide in someone, they may not be able to really hold you or support you because to them, you're this superhero.

[00:36:36] And they don't even know what it's like to hold-- who holds space for Superman or Wonder Woman? They don't have therapists and coaches. Do they? So I feel for someone in your position, and you're still so young, and you've still navigated so much.

[00:36:51] Michelle: I think you become super tight knit with the other people that are with you in that world because of exactly what you just described. No matter how much someone on the outside might care about you, it's really hard for them to get it, and to get the contradiction of feeling so honored to be in such a amazing role, feeling so privileged to be serving my country in almost this celebrity role where I get to do all these incredible things while people are deployed in the Marines or the Navy Seals or whoever are carrying around 100-pound packs in 110-degree weather getting shot at.

[00:37:30] I never want to take the role I was in for granted and feel ungrateful. And it can be hard to talk about the hard parts and the challenges of it without feeling like you might sound ungrateful. And exactly what you described, those interactions I got to have with those kids and with young women were so rewarding for me, my favorite part.

[00:37:52] But it also, especially as an introvert, leaning that way a little bit, it was exhausting at times. And I had bad days. And I had days where the flight didn't go that well, and you're mad at yourself, or your back hurts because you've been pulling nine times the force of gravity every day for three years straight.

[00:38:08] Kate: Oh, girl.

[00:38:09] Michelle: And you just like, "I just want a minute. I just want to sit in the air conditioning for a second by myself and take a breath." But you don't have that ability. You're on a schedule. You have to go to the meet and greet. And I compare it to being a character at Disney World. Little girls come from around the world to meet Cinderella. Cinderella cannot have a bad day.

[00:38:30] Kate: Yeah.

[00:38:31] Michelle: You are in that role to be that persona, to be that inspiration, to be that character that they need, and your needs come second to that most of the time.

[00:38:41] Kate: And that's why at Disney there's dozens of Cinderellas.

[00:38:46] Michelle: Right. Yeah, that's true. And a lot of people actually don't realize that if you go to an air show and you see the Thunderbirds or the Blue Angels fly, there's six jets in that demonstration. Both teams literally only have six pilots. You are trained for your position, and that's it. So if someone's sick, you'll do a five-ship show, five jets instead of six fly. Yeah, there's no swapping in. There's no time off. If you are seeing that that team is on the road, those jets are flying, it is the same person in that all year long.

[00:39:21] Kate: No stunt double, no fill in.

[00:39:24] Michelle: No  stunt double. We fly our jets ourselves between cities as well. People are like, who ferries your jets for you? We're going from Vegas, which is where the Thunderbirds are based, to Florida. That's like a five-hour flight. They're like, who ferries those jets? I'm like, we do. We're flying the jets ourselves. It's still the military. You are like a sports team or you're like a band on tour, but you're still in the military.

[00:39:51] Kate: I had another question, but I just want to ask about this if I can. What does it feel like being in the United States military during this season of our history and life? It's such a wild time politically. If you're alive in the world, you can make your own conclusion from that statement. There's so much to navigate. What was your experience like as someone on the inside?

[00:40:17] Michelle: So I left active duty in very early 2022. My last air show season was 2021. And while I was with the Thunderbirds, we were just so busy that I just didn't pay attention to politics as much as I do now. I think they're a lot louder now as well. I don't know how you cannot pay attention to them. I often ask myself now how I would feel if I was still in.

[00:40:43] If I was on the Thunderbirds right now, being a public figure, being on camera, being interviewed, all these things, but having such conflicting feelings about what's going on in the country and leadership and really as a military officer, having this idea of what a leader looks like, how they talk to other people, the general professionalism that's required, the empathy that we have for people that we are like, we're trying to complete the mission, but we're also trying to take care of our people.

[00:41:16] I worked for some amazing bosses and some not so amazing bosses, but I think they all generally had good intentions, and they all had integrity. And that is really not being represented at the top right now. And so I think that's really a struggle for people on active duty. I can't speak for all of them. It's a diverse group. It's a large group of people, and anyone that assumes that everyone in the military is one political side or the other is just wrong. It's a diverse group.

[00:41:50] Kate: Yeah.

[00:41:51] Michelle: It's very frustrating, I think, for people that are there, and they can't speak out because they'll get in trouble. And they're being labeled a certain way. It is a diverse group of people, age wise, experience wise, background wise, sexual preference wise. It is a segment of America.

[00:42:07] But it's very frustrating to me when you have a group of people that have volunteered to defend the country. They volunteered to make so many sacrifices for their families, for their autonomy, for their ability to speak out in what they believe in, when they're just labeled one way or the other.

[00:42:26] And I think the solace that they find is just focusing on the people they work with day to day, focusing on the mission that they have to do, and trying to just drown out the noise and be like, "When political parties change, the people in my unit are still the same people."

[00:42:42] That's still the person that had my back last year. That's still the person who will have my back four years from now. And to just focus on their version of community. And I think that's true for all of us. Who can I help? Who can I have a impact on? Who can I inspire? And I don't care if they agree with me politically or not. It's hard to not get lost in the noise right now, myself included.

[00:43:10] Kate: Yeah, it is. And it's exhausting. It is. I like what you said though. It's something I'll hang on to, is just remembering who has your back, who had your back then, who still has your back. And I feel like that weighs more than maybe how someone voted or didn't vote. Although, what I just said there could be wildly offensive to somebody too, based on their feelings.

[00:43:34] It's a wild time to be alive and for me, remembering to lead with empathy, but also to stand up for what you believe in and who you believe in and values that you believe in. And for me, humanity is first and foremost. And so fighting for and siding with humanity. And if that costs me some people because I believe in humanity and what people treated a certain way, then so be it. So what was that moment like when you knew it was time to walk away from this extraordinary career?

[00:44:07] Michelle: There were a couple of factors that influenced that. So people were pretty surprised when I left, I think, because I was at a little over 13 years on active duty. You stay till 20. You hit retirement. You walk away with a full pension, free VA healthcare for the rest of your life.

[00:44:26] So there is a big financial carrot at the end of a 20-year career. In my mind though, I had gotten to the point where I didn't want to be just sticking it out for that. If I was going to do it, I had to do it because I believed in what I was doing and because it felt fulfilling to me and all the things were aligned. And seven years of my life, prime time of your life. It wasn't worth whatever that pension ends up calculating out to be, well over a million dollars. It's not a small amount for sure.

[00:44:59] So I had met my husband. We had gotten married my first year on the Thunderbirds. I now have a stepson, so he was six at the time. He's now 12 and a half. Time traveling over here. So that shifts your priorities, of course, because he was here in Las Vegas, and I wasn't going to be separate from my family for years at a time when I got my next assignment.

[00:45:24] They were very established here. My stepson's mom is here. We're not going to split the family. All that just comes into the equation. So that's one part of it. I could have gotten off of active duty and continued to fly the F-16 or another fighter jet in a reserve squadron, like that squadron that I was part of for a little bit. There's one here in Vegas. So that would've solved the family issue. Also, my body was so beat up after three years with the Thunderbirds. The compression on your spine is just really no joke.

[00:45:59] Kate: And I feel silly. I never thought of that.

[00:46:04] Michelle: Yeah. Right, pulling Gs. So each G is a multiple of gravity. If you're 100 pounds and you pull nine Gs, which is what the F-16 is capable of, and what we, me especially in the position as a solo that I was flying in the show, would regularly get between seven and nine Gs multiple times every single show. Now your 100 pound body feels like it weighs 700, 800, 900 pounds. And let's be honest, I don't weigh 100 pounds. Whatever it is, you multiply it.

[00:46:36] That is just so much compression on your joints and on your back. And so I was dealing with chronic back pain, and it was just really limiting-- it in my mind, if I continued to beat my body up like that for another seven years, it was going to change my quality of life when I was 50, when I was 60. And there's a cost there eventually where I'm just like, "I don't know that it's worth it."

[00:46:59] So those two things were both there. But I think the biggest thing that made me leave and then also just not stay in aviation as far as going to fly for the airlines, which is what most people do if they're an Air Force pilot, they usually will go to the airlines-- it's a great career-- I wanted to tell my story. I wanted to inspire people. I wanted to have that impact, and I wanted to feel that fulfillment that I got when I saw those little girls have that light bulb moment.

[00:47:26] Kate: Yeah.

[00:47:28] Michelle: I didn't think that that would happen continuing to fly in the Air Force or continuing on to the airlines. And so I was like, "I had been asked to speak a few times while I was with the Thunderbirds." And it was one of those things, just conflict of interest while you're in that role. You don't have the time. But it started to plant these seeds of like, what would that even look like? Also, that sounds terrifying, because again, I still identify as an introvert.

[00:47:53] So getting on stage for an hour and talking to hundreds or thousands of people, that sounds scary. But also I have that moment of inspiration where it sounds exciting and it sounds like it would fulfill the mission that I want for myself now. And so it was another one of those moments where I had those conflicting feelings. But from past experience, I had learned that taking the leap of faith to do the bold thing had always paid off. And here we are. I'm a speaker, an author.

[00:48:23] Kate: Exactly. If anyone can do it, if you can overcome any fears associated with being a Thunderbird, it's like, ugh, bring it on. What's next? But I don't think people fully appreciate-- it's like being a parent, and I'm a proud auntie, and I've seen up close and personal what goes on being a mother.

[00:48:42] But unless you've been pregnant and been in labor and given birth and you're there 24/7 with a kid, you can't fully appreciate all that goes into being a mom. And I feel like it's the same, very different but same with being an entrepreneur. I think sometimes people think it's glamorous or fun or how nice you two just had a four-hour lunch on a Tuesday and you're not in a corporate office or something.

[00:49:05] But going from something so prestigious and so stable and something-- what careers are hardly even left where you get a pension after a certain amount of time? But you had it all. And to walk away from that so boldly and courageously and step into the unknown, where it's not just talent, it's business development to get clients and to make money.

[00:49:25] And soI just want to honor that because it's something that I've done again and again and again. It's like the constant searching for the next big opportunity. But I want to just honor this because I think, again, people probably think, "Oh, well, she did this." And they think it's just because you make it look easy that it is, and it isn't.

[00:49:46] Michelle: I have had several veterans, many former fighter pilots who are a few years behind me and have seen me do what I'm doing basically on social media. So they only see the highlight reel. And they're like, "Wow, Mace is crushing it. It looks like she's making money and she's traveling all over and she's doing all this cool stuff."

[00:50:06] And they'll reach out to me and be like, "Hey, can we hop on a phone call? I want to pick your brain." I can tell cool jet stories. I could do that and get paid. And I don't want to like poo poo them because they just don't know what they don't know. That is such a tiny part of it. The Thunderbirds in my byline, of course that helps.

[00:50:27] It makes me stand out. Of course, the picture of me in the cockpit with a helmet on makes me stand out. You'll not be a successful speaker though if you can't connect with the audience and you can't meet them where they're at and you can't show them a transformation, and they can't feel your pain when you're telling your stories.

[00:50:46] And I decided to invest everything in becoming good at that just like I had learned to become good at flying. I wasn't just going to show up and half [Bleep] it and get on a stage and be like, "Cool, jets. isn't that awesome, guys?" So I invested a lot of money in going through a speaking school, and I think that part, it's been a ton of work, a ton of rehearsal and trial and error.

[00:51:12] But I think the harder part for me has been figuring out the business infrastructure and everything from taxes to like, when should I hire people? I am a perfectionist. I like to control-- my brand is me, so delegating is hard for me. I am still navigating that. And now that I'm launching a book-- well, I have two children's books, but I'm launching a book on a bigger scale for the first time.

[00:51:39] I feel like I am learning so much every single day and like I have gotten a master's class in storytelling, in selling, which I always thought was an icky word. Turns out it doesn't have to be. And now in launching a book and marketing, the amount I've learned in three years blows my mind. It's hard. I work seven days a week, not as easy but worth it.

[00:52:03] Kate: Yeah. It's a lot, but worth it. And you're really landing with a lot of people and inspiring. And even just the transition from a "secure job" and career, no such thing anymore, but just diving into uncertainty. And not just saying the words, but embodying it, where we actually believe you when you're speaking to us because you've walked through the fire.

[00:52:26] So you do have this new book coming out called The Flipside. What has been your greatest joy and also your greatest pain in creating this masterpiece?

[00:52:37] Michelle: Oh man, it is a journey. So when it releases, it will have been just over three years since I started working on it. And everyone says traditional publishing is a slow process. Yes, that is accurate. And I think almost the same thing that makes it most exciting also makes it most painful.

[00:52:57] It's that I talk about everything in there. I talk about feeling like a failure. I talk about my divorce. I talk about navigating the nuances of being a woman in such a male dominated environment. And all of that feels really true to me, and that's exciting. And I know that the people that that resonates with, it's going to really, really resonate with because it's such a vulnerable, raw, authentic topic.

[00:53:23] That also leads me to be a little bit afraid for the time it releases, especially in the current world that we're in for the backlash that I might get, for playing the victim card about being a woman in that environment or being a DEI hire. All the narratives around that have happened a lot in the last year makes me nervous.

[00:53:44] And it's like putting this baby out into the world that I put everything into in three years and so much vulnerability. And I think the closer we get, the more I bias towards the excitement side. But I recorded the audio book last week, and that was the first time I've read the book aloud obviously, but the first time I had read the entire thing without the eye of editing it.

[00:54:09] And so I experienced it in a different way, and it brought up those fears a little bit again. As I'm reading sections where I'm talking about gendered language, which has been a really hot topic just recently, and being one of the boys and having emails from my squadron commander addressed to gentlemen, as the only female pilot in the squadron, and my mixed feelings about that kind of stuff of wanting to be one of the boys, but also I'm not.

[00:54:40] All of that, reading that out loud and how I talk about that, I'm like, "Well, dang, this is going to [Bleep] some people off. And so it brought up the fear a little bit again. But I think that my target audience, the people that I want to impact, they need that kind of vulnerability and truth.

[00:54:59] Kate: Yeah.

[00:55:00] Michelle: And these imaginary trolls that keep me up at night, a, they probably aren't buying my book. Let's be real. Let's be honest. This isn't just them reading a social media post and writing a mean comment. They got to spend $30 and read a 200-something-page book. So there's a little bit more commitment there.

[00:55:18] So it's probably not going to be as big of a factor as I imagine. But I think as a creator and a creative at this point, you put a lot out into the world and you hope it's well received, but the more well known you become, it's never going to be loved by everyone. And just trying to accept that is one of those things I'm just learning to do right now.

[00:55:39] Kate: Yeah. And congratulations on all of that. Do you feel like you have a new and improved relationship with fear? Because fear is just part of the human experience. And anyone who says, I never have fear, and I've kicked that, they're dealing with more fear than most. What is your relationship like with fear? And I know it changes day-to-day, in my world, hour-to-hour, minute-to-minute, but how do you navigate it when it comes up?

[00:56:05] Michelle: Yeah, so the subtitle of The Flipside is How to Invert Your Perspective and Turn Fear into Your Superpower. Obviously, it'll little play on flying inverted a lot. I think my perspective on fear has just grown so much. It's changed so much. And now I realize that it is one of those things that we will always experience again and again in different ways.

[00:56:26] But it's not really the fear that matters. It's what you do on the other side of it that matters. It's what you do with it that matters. And going through that period where I would recognize the physical experience in my body of excitement and fear at the same time, and discovering that I had the power to choose the excitement every time was really empowering.

[00:56:49] And it's like one of those things, when you start to do it on a small scale with the little things, I call them, small, bold choices, SBCs, because of military acronyms. We love them. When you start to do it in a really tiny way-- where it just feels like a little bit bold, like making that phone call, sending that email, introducing yourself to that person, asking for that thing you want-- every time you do that and you realize whatever you were really afraid of didn't happen, you didn't die, the world didn't implode, you didn't get fired-- 99.9% of the time, that bad stuff isn't going to happen when you do the bold thing.

[00:57:24] It builds self-trust. And doing that again and again is literally the recipe to create confidence and to create courage. And that doesn't mean you don't feel fear. It just means you're bold enough to move forward despite it.

[00:57:38] Kate: Who is more the real you in this present day, Michelle or Mace?

[00:57:44] Michelle: They've become so intermingled now.

[00:57:47] Kate: Oh, I love that.

[00:57:50] Michelle: To bring it full circle, it's almost like the Sasha Fierce, Beyonce analogy, because I brought Mace into who I want Mace to be. You know what I mean? I've carried that call sign with me out of the Air Force into what I'm doing now. And now Mace isn't this type A perfect example of what a fighter pilot should be like, fighter pilots, fighter pilot, all the cliches.

[00:58:18] Mace is someone who does bold things and empowers other people and calculated risks and inspires people and is strong and vulnerable and all the things. And so they've merged together. And so I can't even answer that question with one or the other because in my mind, they're now the same thing.

[00:58:36] Kate: Well, your answer was perfect, and I love that. And it's what I was feeling. And I was feeling the Sasha Fierce thing. So for those who don't know, how can we all come up with our own call sign? Explain a little bit about what that is for people who don't know. And then intermingle them with our first name so that they really work together and we don't have to show up as someone that we're not, or show up as this performance. We just get to show up as the person.

[00:59:02] Michelle: Yeah. So fighter pilot call signs, they sound cool, but they're most of the time based on a mistake that you made. It's like a rite of passage to get your call sign. I won't call it hazing, but it's like a little bit in that realm. I feel like Top Gun had a massive opportunity to educate the public on where call signs come from. I don't know how Maverick got Maverick. We can guess.

[00:59:24] But Goose, Iceman, all of those are just made up names as far as I know. Ours come from a specific story. And so mine's really pilot jargon, technical-heavy. But basically, I went supersonic, so faster than the speed of sound unintentionally when I shouldn't have. And then my jet was going so fast when I tried to turn, tons of energy on the aircraft because of the speed. So I pulled nine Gs, nine times the force of gravity for a full 360, almost G-LOCed which is going unconscious from G-forces. So that mistake earned me my call sign.

[01:00:03] Kate: You got to give me a second. I'm like, "You're taking my breath away." And you say just like it's Tuesday and I had a sandwich for lunch, and now I'm going to go see Michelle for the tacos. I'm exhausted. I'm stressed out, and you just say it like just another Tuesday.

[01:00:19] Michelle: It probably was a Tuesday. Yeah. When I tell that story on stage, which I usually do in a much more polished way than you just heard, I can see it on the audience faces. Some of them are so stressed on my behalf.

[01:00:36] Kate: I'm being stressed out.

[01:00:38] Michelle: I'm so desensitized to it at this point, but honestly it was a really scary experience because it was my second flight in Japan. I was so new. I was just hanging onto the jet by my fingertips. It's a lot of performance. Anyway, so that was how I got mine. But there's some good intentions behind it. It's not just like, oh, we get to make fun of you and come up with good ideas of what to call you.

[01:01:02] So you look around a fighter squadron and you have always a few pilots in that unit that are just super admired. Maybe it's the commander and he has a ton of experience. Maybe it's the weapons officer who went through our version of Top Gun. They're super tactical, super good at their job. Maybe it's someone that's just a really good leader.

[01:01:21] Every single one of those people has a call sign. Every single one of them made a mistake, did something dumb when they were young, and got named by their squadrons. And so it normalizes that. And it normalizes this idea of what we do is hard. What we do is dangerous. There's a price to pay to play here, and that's working your butt off.

[01:01:44] And that's years of gaining experience before you start to feel like you're actually good at it. And so despite this idea of arrogance being around the fighter pilot culture, there's really a lot of humility when it comes to the flying and focusing on debriefing, looking at a flight and like, "Hey, who did what wrong? How can we do that better?"

[01:02:09] And I think call signs go along that same way, that no matter how much experience you have, no matter what your rank or your title is, if you mess up in the air, we're going to talk about it when we land. And we're going to do that, not to make fun of you, not to shame you, but because we need to be as good as we possibly can be.

[01:02:27] And the only way we can do that is to openly, objectively discuss mistakes. Not hide them and not emotionally attached to them, but we want to be as good as we can. Because we have a high stakes career. And I think call signs and then that debrief culture, they just go hand-in-hand. So that [Inaudible] a lot of background.

[01:02:47] I actually do a workshop with corporate audiences around call signs, where they reflect on a mistake they made in the past. They talk about what they learned from it. They talk about silver linings that came from it. And then they share them in small groups. And it's a super vulnerable exercise at first.

[01:03:05] People are always a little bit uncomfortable because they're usually put in these random groups and it might be people they know, they might not. But the second half, they get to give each other call signs. And they love that part. And then they all wear these name tags with their new call sign written on it.

[01:03:22] And then we try to do a social event, a happy hour or something afterwards, and it generates all these conversations. It generates connection. And the whole goal is to create the psychological safety and this culture within these teams that we all mess up. We will do what we can to prepare and to prevent mistakes, but they inevitably will happen. We will almost never execute perfectly. But what makes us better, makes us the top in our industry, is how we debrief that, what we do with that and how we move forward.

[01:03:55] Kate: And I love that you take the shame out of it, and especially, I love that even these little kids look up to you. Because even as you're talking, I'm like, "Wow, I wish you could go and teach kids in grade school." Because even depending on parenting and schooling and things like that, there's so much shame that we all experience even as young kids, if you mess up or don't do that.

[01:04:14] And then especially if you're doing something high performance, athletics, dance, music, whatever it is, you want to fly jets, there's so much pressure and expectation. So I love, in one of the highest pressure situations, you guys take the shame out and learn from it and then wear it as this badge of honor, the name.

[01:04:34] And so I just invite everyone to do this exercise and to think of what your call sign is. I'm going to do this and think of mine. There's too many for me to think of in the moment, and I'm like, "Ugh." But I promise to do this exercise because there is so much fun and growth with it. And then for it to be a part of your name, and then it's like our Mace, our Goose, our Iceman, our Sasha Fierce. And then it becomes part of our persona that we don't have to perform, but we get to embody.

[01:05:02] And then it becomes intricately linked one of the same, where you don't have to choose like, am I going to show up and perform and be this person with my mask, or am I just going to be who I am? And that's not only good enough, but who we would all prefer. Right?

[01:05:16] Michelle: For sure, and I love that you mentioned kids because you can't really see it behind me, but I have two children's picture books, and the second one is called, What's Your Call Sign? And the main character Lily, Lily [Inaudible], she wants to be a fighter pilot. In the first book, you get that story, but she's back in the second one and she makes a mistake in a soccer game, and she gets a nickname because of it, and she feels all this shame around it.

[01:05:40] Then her grandpa is the mentor, and he's a former fighter pilot. And so he tells her about fighter pilot call signs. And so it normalizes mistakes and that they're an inevitable part of being human. But as long as you learn from them, it's actually a notch in your belt because no one gets to the top levels or to where they want to go without those mistakes.

[01:06:03] Kate: Yeah, it makes us who we are. And I thought about that last night, brushing my teeth, of all things and thinking of-- I'm doing so much reflecting on my journey lately and thinking of all those things that you're like, "Man, I wish I didn't do that." Or financial mistakes, just all these different things. And then I'm like, "If you take all that away, you're not this extraordinary person you are today."

[01:06:25] You don't have the depth. You don't have the wisdom. You don't have the grit and the resilience. So I try to reframe it as that too. And you certainly embody that. I have to know because again, I'm like, "I don't want to mess with you." And your energy is just very-- but it is. It's who you are, and it's lovely. But also, I'm like, "I don't want to mess with Mace."

[01:06:44] So I got to know, what are you doing or what is happening when you are completely free and your hair is let down and you're giggling and you're acting silly? I just want to see you in this like silly, off the camera, off the record Mace. I imagine you're with your husband and stepson. What brings you to that childlike silly, playful energy?

[01:07:09] Michelle: Yes, having a stepson, for sure. We were just singing kitchen karaoke while I was making dinner last night. I cannot sing. He can, so I'm almost like impressed. And then I'm like, "You can carry this--" We have a 2-year-old Sheepadoodle. He is definitely like my dog, and he is like a-- he's at doggy daycare, or he would be laying right here right now making sounds.

[01:07:31] I think this is true with all dog owners, but I will talk to him and the dumbest high-pitched voice and call him all these little nicknames and then I'm like, "Oh, if someone could be a fly on the wall right now, they would be like, what are you doing?"

[01:07:45] Kate: Yeah. I love that. I'll say, dogs are my favorite people, but they are little people, and they bring out our most loving selves because they are just such pure love. They're just evolved humans.

[01:08:00] Michelle: Yeah. I'm okay with the ridiculous level of affection I give my dog. It's like a little baby when you're like, "Oh, your cheeks are so cute. I just want to eat you." Cuteness aggression, where you want to squeeze something, it's so cute. That's how I feel about my dog all the time.

[01:08:17] Kate: That's you. Okay. Well, this has been so great. I'm just so curious. I feel like you've already had-- cats have nine lives. You've had career success and excitement for nine lifetimes. When you look back thus far on your life and career and all that you have done, what are you most proud of?

[01:08:37] Michelle: I'm actually most proud of what I'm doing now even though it doesn't seem as prestigious as flying for the Thunderbirds. And that had to happen for me to get here. Despite the uncertainty of being an entrepreneur and the highs and lows, I've never felt so just aligned.

[01:08:56] And so there is no separation between Michelle and Mace anymore, and there is no difference in how I am hanging out with my friends versus how I get to show up publicly. And I don't have to follow anyone else's talking points. I've never once had the Sunday scaries or that feeling of, I just don't want to go give this speech, or I just don't want to do this thing.

[01:09:21] I'm actually excited all the time for my work. And that is not to say I didn't have those moments in the Air Force, but I think it was such a grind that a lot of times you lost that. Despite the results, despite the impact in the book and all those things, I'm just proud of getting to a spot in my life where I feel that way.

[01:09:43] Kate: The peace.

[01:09:46] Michelle: That's a great way to describe it.

[01:09:48] Kate: Yeah, I feel that. I can tell we're connected too, and I really have felt you from beginning to end and all the different emotions that I've experienced in my body thinking about your journey. And so how great that as you're talking now and where you are in your journey now, I feel the peace. Like the heat has subsided, the pressure, all of that.

[01:10:07] And now I'm just sitting here despite all the tech hoo-ha and whatnot, I'm just like, "I feel at peace." And so what a great place to be. And I invite everybody into that. You might have to go on a bit of a journey, but the journey, it's so worth it, and it's so juicy if we can just learn from it. And I think a great assessment we can all do is to come up with our call sign.

[01:10:27] Maybe we have many. Thank you for explaining it in the way Top Gun did not. And that's everyone's homework. And also for everyone to check out all of your books. We'll put it all in the show notes for everybody to follow along on your journey and get that inspiration. Any final word as we head on out here today?

[01:10:44] Michelle: No, this has been fun. I feel like you thought it was a mess with being in an Airbnb and the temperature control and everything. I do a lot of podcast interviews, and it's just felt supernatural. And like you said, I think we vibe, and I can feel that as well. So I'm grateful that you gave me the platform and the time, and I'm getting to share my story with your audience. It's an honor.

[01:11:05] Kate: It's such an honor for me too. Thank you so much. I think what just came to mind as you were saying it-- this keeps happening to me, Mace, is that the exact message, and sometimes it hits you over the head like it just did, and it makes me want to weep and laugh all at once, is I have been putting so much pressure on myself. It makes me want to weep. Not boo-hoo, but just putting so much pressure on myself, and it comes earnestly from my life.

[01:11:28] And you talking about your journey, it's just like, why do we do this to ourselves? Because the most beautiful thing about you is just showing up and playing with the dog and touching that one little girl who thinks you're awesome and you give her choice and possibility and inspiration.

[01:11:45] And so I'm going to, I think, come up with my call sign, something to do with taking the pressure off and just embracing all of the disruptions and noise and chaos. Because we learn from it, and it's a badge of honor and to embrace it. So thank you.

[01:12:05] Michelle: Oh, for sure. It's been fun. And I feel like this is just the beginning. We're going to do some more stuff.

[01:12:10] Kate: Yeah, I know. I'm excited too. I'm excited. Well, thank you so much for being here. And thanks to all of you for being here, especially to the end. And you're hot and sweaty and under pressure, and you're going to go discover or call sign, and please let us know what it is. We appreciate you being here. Thank you for supporting our mission. Until the next time, have a great day, everybody. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.