Punk, Psychedelics & the Power of Presence with Fishbone Bassist Norwood Fisher

[00:00:13] Kate: The soul and the passion rather than I have a 10-step plan or system. Is that right?

[00:00:19] Norwood: That's absolutely correct. We didn't know what we were doing. We didn't know what we was getting into. We just went for it.

[00:00:26] Kate: What do you think it was about the six of you that was able to have such success?

[00:00:31] Norwood: We create a chemical combination with our brainwaves, with our spirit, with our intentions, and together we as human beings create magic.

[00:00:43] Kate: So what happened that you took a hiatus and then suddenly you're out of the group?

[00:00:48] Norwood: Whatever the outcome today, I see the beauty in the journey, and I appreciate it.

[00:00:58] Kate: Hi, there. Welcome back to Rawish with Kate Eckman. Here today with musical legend Norwood Fisher, founding member of Fishbone, an American rock band that has a very distinctive, very eclectic sound that has influenced so many musicians since its founding in 1979. What a great year. Norwood, thank you so much for being here today.

[00:01:19] Norwood: Yeah, yeah, no. It was '78 when I first met the guys. The first couple guys that would become Fishbone, was '79. So that was Kendall Jones and Christopher Dowd. '79, Angelo showed up and we got to know him, and then we started making music.

[00:01:39] Kate: It's unheard of to think of 12-year-old kids meeting and then going on to forming a very successful band and just how hard it is to do anything in the music business, let alone touring the world and have commercial success, and to be together for so long in a, we'll sadly call it a toxic industry.

[00:02:00] And this band has recently had a big change in disruption because despite you being a founding member, despite your name being part of the Fishbone name, your last name being part of the Fishbone name, you are no longer with the group as of a few months ago. So we'll get to that.

[00:02:19] But could you just share a little bit about how this magic all came together, what allowed it to be success, and then ultimately why you're no longer in a group that you created?

[00:02:30] Norwood: Yeah.

[00:02:31] Kate: I'm laughing with, not at because I'm feeling--

[00:02:33] Norwood: I feel you. I feel you. No offense anywhere. You know what? We just had the nerve to dream and follow through, and to just do what we wanted to do, how we wanted to do it. And really, it's the people that came before us that really informed us that was possible.

[00:02:57] Sly Stone and Parliament-Funkadelic, George Clinton, Bootsy Collins, those are the people that we admired maybe the most, but it was a whole world of music. And coming into the mid-teens in '77, '78, '79, punk rock was just starting to emerge, and the rails was off.

[00:03:26] There was no boundaries with that. And you could look it up if you don't have no clue, Dr. Demento, was a syndicated radio show in the '70s. And Dr. Demento, it was like it sound. He played Frank Zappa. He played the most bizarre stuff.

[00:03:46] You ever hear a song called Fish Heads? That came from the Dr. Demento show. And so out of the '60s, there was opportunity to take chances. All we did was make music that represented our record collection and our interests. We just mashed it all up and just-- because punk rock.

[00:04:12] Kate: It sounds like you didn't even know to be confident or have some strategy or business plan like everyone talks about now. You just went for it. It was the soul, which we hear in the music, but the soul and the passion rather than I have a 10-step plan or system. Is that right?

[00:04:30] Norwood: That's absolutely correct. We didn't know what we were doing. We didn't know what we was getting into. We didn't know who we was going to meet. We just went for it. And so the one thing that we had at our advantage was that we started really young, but the thing is we didn't have a clue on how to get booked in a club.

[00:04:50] So we rehearsed for four years. And so, when we finally hit the clubs, we was tight. We didn't know it. We didn't know how we occurred. We were just doing what we did. We had this reputation for being tight, and we were just trying to get tighter. We didn't know.

[00:05:12] Kate: I love that you just said this so much, Norwood, because the people always talk about this overnight success, or y'all just make it look easy, so people think you just show up and make all this money and get these record deals. I love that you focused on the craft and the joy and art of making music rather than we got to get paid right away.

[00:05:33] We got to book this right away. We got to get a deal. You were so rehearsed, and I think that set the tone and foundation for you to be able to have the success rather than rushing the process.

[00:05:44] Norwood: Yeah, absolutely. And our parents just allowed us to do what we were doing. Nowadays a kid gets super talented and the parents want to put them on display all of a sudden. And YouTube and social media of all kinds is that people feed those machines. But we just stayed isolated and worked because we didn't know anything else to do.

[00:06:11] But it gave us four years of sharing with each other, sharing what we thought musically, sharing the artists that we love, discovering music together. So there's a chemistry with the original six members that know that cannot be duplicated because we discovered life together.

[00:06:35] Kate: Oh.

[00:06:36] Norwood: You know what I mean? For better or worse, we started drinking together, started smoking together. You know what I mean? It was all of that. Whatever the outcome today, I see the beauty in the journey, and I appreciate it. I'm grateful.

[00:06:55] And in fact, this past weekend I was a tour guide at the punk Rock Museum in Las Vegas. That's like walking through the yearbook of my life. I think about the first time I encountered punk rock, a punk rocker, the news making parents scared and making kids curious.

[00:07:22] Because the evil punk rock along with back masking at that time. But during the tour guide thing at the Punk Rock Museum, I did it in August too, and each time it really connects me to the miracle and the beauty of my life, my journey. And I look at it like none of it had to be. No matter how big the audience was, I always looked at it like this doesn't have to be, and I'd be grateful. I never took it for granted.

[00:07:58] Kate: Ooh.

[00:07:58] Norwood: I didn't take my brothers for granted. I can say that to the end, I always understood the beauty and the value in each member and everybody that ever came through.

[00:08:10] Kate: You're speaking the themes about why I love and miss when I grew up, the '80s and the '90s. And it was more about connection and creativity and entertaining yourselves and creating art for the joy and the fun of it. What you're describing is something I long for and don't see as much anymore, now with AI and everything else.

[00:08:30] But I feel like this could be the whole theme of the episode, those four years of rehearsing and connecting and growing up together and evolving together and getting to know yourselves and experiencing life together, and how that led to this career. And also doing that while you were going against the grain and playing some new types of music. And so what do you feel like-- at that time, was there some fear in terms of we're doing something so different? We don't really know what we're doing. Or did you not know, so it didn't matter. It's like the bliss of not really knowing.

[00:09:05] Norwood: Yeah, honestly, it was the bliss of not really knowing. Honestly, there was very little, as far as fear is concerned, I believe, with any of us. If somebody in the room had trepidation, I didn't detect it. So yeah, it was the ignorance and honestly the nerve to be like, "No, we can do what we want."

[00:09:29] Kate: What made you successful? Because so many people could have the same origin story that you just described, and nobody knows them except for a few people in their hometown, but you're this legendary group. What do you think it was about the six of you that was able to have such success?

[00:09:47] Norwood: We didn't know that we were doing something groundbreaking. Obviously, there was something groundbreaking happening. We didn't have a clue what it was.

[00:09:56] Kate: Wow.

[00:09:58] Norwood: Once people began to say it, then you go like, "Oh, really? I guess we're those guys." And as our career went on and we began to encounter people, and they told us what we meant to them, other bands, artists of all kinds, then you begin to get a picture of it.

[00:10:19] There was a thing with our live show, which was impactive dynamics to the highest of height activities. We went berserk on stage. But again, honestly, that's what we thought it was about, growing up watching the Midnight Special and Don Kirshner's Rock Concert, Soul Train, there was certain acts that impacted us.

[00:10:46] And it was the crazy ones. One, being big fans of Parliament-Funkadelic, that was the greatest show on earth. And anytime we saw Kiss on the TV-- I never saw him live. Saw him on TV a bunch, and it was mesmerizing. It was insanity to me. Watching David Bowie, who pushed more boundaries than David Bowie? Maybe friends.

[00:11:17] Maybe not more. But coming up in an era where all that stuff was happening and then punk rock, and then real energy that actually testosterone field teenage young men could relate to. I was like, "Wait a minute. That looks fun."

[00:11:41] So the first time l saw the clash open for The Who at the first farewell tour, I ran into the moss pit. I ran into it, got my [Bleep] handed to me by a bunch of jocks. It was not a punk rock show. It was The Who. But ultimately, when I first got in a real punk rock show and got in there mixing it up, all I could think about is my homies back in the hood and how much fun they could have. When I discover something new, I think about my friends. I grew up in gang-related Los Angeles, so I think about the guys in my neighborhood that were my homies that joined gangs. And I'd be like, "Dang, if they could have just found this, maybe they wouldn't have went the gang route." Maybe they would've enjoyed knocking around in the moss pit or careening down a mountain on a snowboard or surfing.

[00:12:36] Those that came before us, absolutely granted us being. And the people that we were fans of, like the musical guests on Saturday Night Live like Devo, Fear, seeing the specials on TV for the first time, and then two documentaries. It was The Decline of Western Civilization and the movie Dance Craze, live concert footage of these bands that actually became the foundation of everything that we built upon. Along with everything else, we just kept adding to the soup.

[00:13:14] Kate: Describe that feeling of being fans of some of the greats, the David Bowie's, and Kiss, and then all of those icons, knowing you and your band and complimenting your music, being influenced or impacted by your music. What was that feeling like?

[00:13:32] Norwood: I tell you what. There's no bigger validation than your heroes acknowledging that you exist and then giving you love. And really, at the top of the mountain is ultimately George Clinton, who embraced us. On and off doing shows in the last 10 years. We did tours with. And I think I was eight years old when I first became fully aware of that band and listened to the first album, the self-titled Funkadelic and America Eats Its Young, and was an instant van.

[00:14:12] So to live my life as a super fan and then encounter my superheroes, George and Bootsy, and eventually Sly Stone-- I don't really know Sly Stone well, but there was a moment where I was introduced to him and he like, "Yeah, I know Fishbone.  I know Fishbone."

[00:14:32] It's not just those guys. Again, in punk rock, there's this accessibility beyond anything, knowing the bands-- Most of the bands in the movie The Decline of Western Civilization, I can say we've encountered, created friendships with some. And if it ain't real friendships, had amazing encounters with. I can't think of somebody that was an [Bleep].

[00:15:08] Kate: So many people, whether they want to be a famous actor, athlete, musician, podcast host, or whatever they want to do, a well-known attorney, do well in private equity, everyone's obsessed with the goal and wants to be there already. And I can say that because I've been one of those people. We're so focused on the goal because that's our culture, and less emphasis is placed on the joy of the journey or trusting the process.

[00:15:33] And I love hearing real life stories of people who, it's not like you set out like, all right, we're 12 years old. We're going to sit down. We got to write some Grammy-winning songs and albums, and we got to be rich and famous. And you got there. You got to the success. You got to the mountaintop, but in a very pure way.

[00:15:51] And I'd argue that because it was done in that way, you had longevity. And then you were able to be in this band for 45 years, which is wild. So do you think that is part of the success? Talent aside, hard work aside, is there any other magic ingredient that you proved?

[00:16:11] Norwood: You know what? It's the chemical combination of the guys that started the original intention, honestly. It was the just right chemical combination. It took all six of us to create that. And it would've been a different journey if anyone would've been different involved.

[00:16:32] Most of the members went away and eventually came back. And there was nothing more evident to me than when the original members-- there was one moment where the entire original band performed together, and it was for a wedding. I don't remember, 2016 or '17. I don't remember.

[00:16:58] But anyway, there was a moment, man, where everybody's in the room together playing in a rehearsal, and I had-- oh, I get it. I played with other people playing that music, and some of them were leaching bounds better musicians than some of the original members. It didn't matter.

[00:17:22] Kate: Oh, I love that.

[00:17:24] Norwood: The level of musicianship was perfect to create what we did. And every time that didn't work out and everybody went back to their own corners, eventually I kicked open the door again for most of the original band members to come back together.

[00:17:45] And again, I'm sitting in a room. Original keyboard is Chris Dowd. Every single keyboardist that came in the band is incredibly much better musician than he is. But what he brought to the table where-- there was moment in a rehearsal we're playing a song called a selection, and Chris is playing the parts that are actually on the album, which he rarely did before that.

[00:18:13] And I heard the machine doing this thing, and I'm like, "I got the magic, the chemical combination in the room." And ultimately that's what we create in bands. Actually, in any endeavor where there's maybe two or more people involved, we create a chemical combination with our brainwaves, with our spirit, with our intentions. And together we as human beings create magic.

[00:18:46] Kate: Mm. A chemical combination. And I'm thinking how much that applies to marriages and friendships and business partnerships and creative connections. Because so many times people are "perfect matches" on paper, but it is this unique-- and you can't create it or destroy it. It's either there or it isn't.

[00:19:08] And to really capitalize on that and see how unique and rare it is. And I'm so glad that you capitalized on that unique magic because it is so rare. And then when the love fades, if you will, or I don't know if the chemical connection evaporated into thin air, but after 45 years and at the end of 2024, you found yourself, despite being a founding member, despite being Norwood Fisher of Fishbone, you were no longer in Fishbone.

[00:19:39] Norwood: Okay, so that was December, 2023, I played my last show. I'm just past the year mark of not being involved in the band. And all intents and purposes, it is the band that I started. We all started together, but I was the guiding force through and through, and the business of the band was my responsibility from the beginning.

[00:20:08] And my bedroom was the cauldron that all the magic was initiated in by and large. It along time coming. Angelo, our lead vocalist, he voiced for quite a few year and acted out in frustration.

[00:20:31] And he really did not want to be Fishbone anymore. He had his side projects, and he saw them as more important a lot. And so there was times where we couldn't work because he wanted to do other things. I recognized it and at some point I was like, "Why am I trying to hold this thing together?"

[00:20:56] And I started talking to him about like, "Dude, if you are this unhappy doing it, let's draw it down and just try to ease out gracefully and maybe figure out when we could come back and do it when it feels good." And he just looked at me. He is like, "I'm addicted to it." But he hated it.

[00:21:14] Kate: That's so interesting. First of all, the fact that you lasted more than four decades is quite phenomenal and unique and rare. But I know that there has to be some sort of heartache because it is like a marriage ending or a brotherhood ending and something that you thought you'd have forever.

[00:21:30] And you did have that really chemical connection that you'd say. So what was it like when you found yourself? And it's my understanding, I'll let you elaborate, that you didn't quit. You weren't forced out. You weren't fired. I don't know how you're fired from a group you started.

[00:21:45] Norwood: I'll explain. We agreed on a hiatus. I was emailed a letter that had a bunch of demands and resentments. I tried to negotiate. Negotiations didn't go well. I was facing an ultimatum, like adhere to these demands or let's go on hiatus.

[00:22:06] And I'm like, "[Bleep] it. Hiatus is what it is." And let me say this. It seemed to be influenced by the management that is still the current management. And I had spent a couple of years trying to figure out, like, I'm like, "I've been talking to the band saying something's wrong, y'all. I can't put my finger on it, but something is wrong."

[00:22:32] But I didn't want to go around being alarmist, five alarm fire. And I was pointing to management though, like, "Look, this needs to get figured out. There was some gigantic missteps." And I tried to talk to the band through it without killing the momentum because we had a momentum going that I was like, " Look, I have managed the band several times." But I was in a situation where most managers, I'd be like, "I could do it better myself. I could at least do what they're doing myself."

[00:23:08] And this was the situation. I was like, "Ah, I couldn't do all this stuff myself." Somebody's smarter than me, and so I just didn't want to just kill it. I'm like, "Let's see if we can figure this out. And so I went against my gut.

[00:23:24] Kate: Oh.

[00:23:25] Norwood: My gut was telling me, don't, and I went against my gut. I tried to test reality, and I don't assume I'm right. And it bit me in the [Bleep], but I thoroughly believe there was money issues that began with management. But beyond that, Angelo resented me for a long time.

[00:23:50] Kate: Wow.

[00:23:51] Norwood: He really did. Like I said, I managed the band. So anytime I managed the band-- I managed the band three times in the history of the band, other than at the very, very beginning, and now didn't consider myself a manager. But every time I managed the band, Angelo began to look at me like I was an authority figure.

[00:24:12] And it wasn't the job that I wanted and was happy to pass it on to somebody when they came along and they were qualified. But on the real, Angelo's dad passed away, I think in 2005. And honestly, I loved Angelo's dad, Billy Moore. He was amazing dude to me. I really appreciate who he was. But when his dad passed, I quickly, was like, "Oh, Angelo sees me as an authority figure."

[00:24:43] Kate: Mm.

[00:24:43] Norwood: And he began to respond to me like his dad was gone as an authority figure of shorts that he rebelled against as a teenager. And now, as adults, grown ass men. So that was my take on it. Okay, so I don't party. I don't drink. I don't smoke a thing. No drugs. But it wasn't always like that. In 2007, I stopped smoking cigarettes. No, no, no, no. 1997, I stopped smoking cigarettes. I stopped drinking. And at some point, I stopped smoking weed, but I loved hallucinogenics, and I'd stop doing that too at some point in '97. And I stopped for three years and then was on this back and forth start, stop shit until 2006. And then I just stopped everything completely.

[00:25:41] Well, Angelo's journey was a little more difficult. And I know there was a part of him that resented me for that because he couldn't do it. But there's other things, and I don't know all the reasons why.

[00:25:54] Kate: So what happened that you took a hiatus and then suddenly you're out of the group? How does that even happen, and how did that make you feel?

[00:26:03] Norwood: We were on a hiatus. I'm going about the business of trying to figure out what happened with our money, with management. I'm like, just nose to the grindstone. And couple of months into a hiatus, I look up and I see they have booked shows. And then I found out they hired new band members.

[00:26:23] Kate: Wow.

[00:26:23] Norwood: Dirty Walt, original member, and John "Wet Daddy" Steward, who had been with us for decades on drums, they were not a part of it. I found out they asked those guys to be a part of it if they didn't want to be down. Anyway, they just started booking stuff, and nothing hurt more than that.

[00:26:42] Kate: Wow.

[00:26:43] Norwood: That was a gut punch like nothing else in my life. I quickly got past some of the anger because I was thinking violently. And I know that I don't want to be violent. That's not who I want to be. So without just suppressing it, I could work it out to where I wasn't outwardly violent. But every time I saw an advertisement on social media, it hurt.

[00:27:17] Kate: How are you even allowed, or how is it even possible for someone to throw you out of your own band or replace you without a discussion? Or how is this even allowed to happen? Maybe I sound naive, but it's your thing.

[00:27:33] Norwood: Yeah, exactly. The other part of it is, one, I don't have a bunch of cash stashed away to deal with it legally. That's the recourse that I have to take. I'm in a better place today in that way, through love and support of some friends. But honestly, I did do some legal things, but it got ignored.

[00:28:00] Kate: Do you think God or the universe just has a different plan for you? And I know it didn't end or have a smooth transition there the way you'd like or hoped, but do you feel like this is a higher power intervening to put you on a different path and trajectory? And your creative endeavors are still going strong. You play in several other bands. But when you look for a deeper meaning here, what message do you get?

[00:28:25] Norwood: You know what? Absolutely. Look, there's this voice inside. It very quickly was like, "Do not be concerned with whatever they're up to. Just go your path." And so I can listen to that voice. And at the same time pursue my legal avenues. But God knows, I have done the legal path with several things in my life, and I don't look at it as this good living.

[00:29:01] Kate: It's exhausting.

[00:29:02] Norwood: It is. So I got to find a way to do it to where I'm not consumed by it, where I do what's necessary and don't be attached to the outcome. So in my life, I am very much someone that loves to give back. Maybe it has always been a part of who I was, but really, there was a point where I was looking at my life and I didn't know how I was going to make it from point A to point B financially exactly.

[00:29:40] But I looked at myself and I was like, "You know what? No matter how bad I think I got it, there's people out there that are doing way worse, and at least I can use my talent to give back." And that's what I began to do. And so I've only really grown in that capacity. And really, that's one of the things that lights me up more than anything.

[00:30:09] So March 31st, I'm co-producing a fundraiser for LA Fire Relief efforts that will go to MusiCares and some other organizations. It started off as a for-profit thing that got canceled because of the fires. But really, we were rehearsing right upon the performance and the fires was like, "You ain't performing, fool. Go home."

[00:30:42] So in that rehearsal, everybody basically agreed like, yeah, we'll put it to Fire Relief and do it that way. But that's just a part of who I am as well. A really good friend of mine named David Moss who you may have met, who Scott Page introduced us. But David Moss, he was doing work in Watts, the home of the Watts Rebellion, or maybe you know it more like the Watts Riot. And the Los Angeles area, 50 years after the Watts Rebellion, was one of the most neglected areas of the city. 50 years of neglect. And David was already doing work in there in Watts, taking kids to summer camp. And then the organization he was with was the Harold Robinson Foundation.

[00:31:40] And they created a six-week summer camp on the campus of Marco Middle School. That was my introduction to giving in Watts. Well, I introduced Flea from the Chili Peppers to David Moss. And once they talked, Flea was like, "Let's build a music school in Watts." And I'm like, "You don't have to ask twice." That goes down.

[00:32:02] And so we began to embark on that journey. And my dreams got bigger. Flea brought that on, and my dreams expanded, that is. At some point, through a conversation with one of the board members, we did a South line to what we call a Watts Conservatory of Music. Completely nonprofit.

[00:32:26] No one will make profit from it unless they're teaching or working really. In the six-week summer camp, in the music course, 50 kids at the end of six weeks did a concert for the other 200 kids in the summer camp. And really hardly any parents showed up.

[00:32:47] One of the board members is like, "What's with the disconnection with the parental enthusiasm?" And I go into like, "It is poverty and all the trappings of that." I could repeat this conversation, but bottom line is in that conversation, I was like, "Music is cool, but is it possible to actually put the opportunity in the community?"

[00:33:11] And I landed on computer coding. And a really good friend of mine one day-- I just kept telling people, that's what I want to do. And somebody asked me what I wanted for my birthday one year, and I'm like, "I want to bring computer coding to this community." And that person went and figured it out on a certain level. Came back to me with three organizations that did it.

[00:33:38] And then another friend was like, "Your dream became my dream. I'm going to help you." And then we got legs. And so I was introduced to organizations and people that could help facilitate it. And the only thing that stopped it is we ran up into COVID, the pandemic. It would've materialized in 2020, but in 2025 now we are about to launch the school.

[00:34:08] Kate: Congratulations.

[00:34:09] Norwood: Yes. And it looks like we'll have two locations. It looks like we're going to do a summer program at Bourbon Day, is a Jesuit school in Watts. And then shortly thereafter, as soon as possible, we'll open on the campus of Markham Middle School and figure out a curriculum and whatnot. And then as soon as possible after, I'm going to bring in computer coding, robotics, and whatever else is possible in that sector.

[00:34:40] Kate: This is so exciting. We're all on our own healing journey, whether we realize it or not. And you and I have both been through some unthinkable setbacks, trauma, tragedy, pain in our own way, and I think we both have taken that as an opportunity to make it a catalyst for great transformation.

[00:34:58] This show, I started out of that, and you've started these schools and these programs out of no longer being with this band that you started and how much that hurt and the anger and even violent thoughts that you had.

[00:35:11] What really was it that you were able to release that anger, accept that you're no longer in your beloved band, Fishbone, and make these changes and go on this fresh path? How were you able to do that?

[00:35:26] Norwood: First and foremost, I was able to look at the history from the beginning to my last show and be like, I did enough. I'm not obligated in my life to continue with them dudes, especially in that level of betrayal.

[00:35:44] Kate: Wow.

[00:35:44] Norwood: I'm like, I know in the depths of my soul that I gave way more than I took. I showed up for my brothers, and I respected the brotherhood. I, from the beginning to the end, operated out of love. There was frustration. There was a moment in the last few months of the whole thing I didn't know what was coming at this point. We were on tour with George Clinton, and we were having a band meeting-- not a band, just talking in the bus, in the tour bus.

[00:36:18] But I was going on about being a support system for each other. And Angelo looked at me, and he's in the middle. He looked at me like-- I didn't really understand what was coming, but he was like, I despise you. Because what I was saying was farfetched.

[00:36:37] And I looked back at him and I was like, "That's unfortunate because I don't despise you. I actually love you. I just don't like the shit you do all the time." And you know what? I can look at that and not take it personal. I'm really good at not taking it personal. Honestly, it's like a three-year-old child telling his parents, I hate you, please.

[00:37:01] I don't take it personal. It is my ability to not take it personal and immediately go like, "Wait a minute. I did my duty. I know that I gave." And so that's my first step away. And then, honestly, I'm a surfer, and at some point, I was like, "The water will heal me." [00:37:28] Kate: Did you ever consider walking away from music altogether after this fallout?

[00:37:32] Norwood: Hell no.

[00:37:34] Kate: What keeps you going? What keeps you in it?

[00:37:37] Norwood: I'm a lifer man. I asked for a guitar at six years old and got it. And I was eight years old. I asked for a weight set for Christmas. My older cousin, Bud, came over. He looked at the weight set and looked at me and said, "Boy, you ain't going to lift them weights." I was like, "Yes, I am." He made me a deal on Christmas Day.

[00:38:00] He traded me his bass, his amp, his speaker and gave me my life, a rock record collection with the music. That would be the foundation. Them Funkadelic albums, Graham Central Station, Woodstock Two with amazing performances of Sly and the Family Stone, Jefferson Airplane, whatever else was on there. Oh yeah. Otis Redding. Anyway.

[00:38:28] Kate: How did you learn to play the bass?

[00:38:31] Norwood: You know what? I didn't. I taught myself. I am self-taught.

[00:38:36] Kate: I knew you were going to say that.

[00:38:38] Norwood: I am self-taught. I've figured it out. And it was just what I wanted in my life. Look, I'm living the dream of a 6-year-old, and that 6-year-old is happy as [Bleep].

[00:38:51] Kate: And you see it on stage. When I watch you perform, I've seen you with Think: X, one of your bands that is phenomenal. Love your band members. You're in there. Scott always talks about you're up there with your shorts, blissed out, playing the bass, in the zone. You look like a kid in terms of energy. What is that that you're tapping into?

[00:39:13] Norwood: Oh, wait a minute. Look, I don't even know, but I've been thinking about this for a while. And look, this is the first time I'm going to talk about this particular phenomenon. No, no, no, maybe I talked about it. I just did an interview with Bass Magazine, and I may have talked about this there. But there was this thing that I noticed very early before we even had the name Fishbone in the room.

[00:39:39] We'd be jamming. We'd be playing. And when we were all six of us just deep in it, I look around the room and we'd be just swaying and not to the rhythm. And I felt it. Sometimes I'd be like, why am I moving like this? And I still don't know what that was.

[00:40:00] And it never happened with another group of people and it has never happened. I didn't notice it when we all got back together either. But when we was kids, maybe clear up until the first member exited, periodically, we'd be in the room jamming, and it would be this swing, this involuntary-- I never actually asked them dudes if they ever noticed it.

[00:40:30] Kate: It's like you went to another dimension, it sounds like.

[00:40:33] Norwood: Yes. We was tapped into something. And honestly, my pursuit has been for a long time, the inner journey. Like I said, I used to like hallucinogenics a lot. Sometimes I'm like, "Oh, I don't have to be cognizant and fluid in thought. I could be disjointed and [Bleep] up."

[00:40:54] But there was one time, it was in the early '90s, I was on the phone with Perry Ferrell, James A. Dixon. One day he was like, "Yeah, man, we are the shaman." And I went like, "Yeah, we're the shaman." Yeah, I'm a shaman. I got some books on shamanism. I don't remember if I finished any of them.

[00:41:14] And man, I can look back and say, boy, I'm really grateful for my experiences. And not all of them were amazing. I short circuited every now and again. It's not a bunch. And there was this thing where Angelo's mom was the first person, I think I was 15, she called me the devil. And Angelo told me.

[00:41:40] And several times in my childhood she called me the devil. But there would've been other people in my life that called me the devil. I was like, didn't think I was doing nothing devilish. I ain't no angel, but I got some problems. I hurt people in my life, and I'm hopefully past that.

[00:42:00] I remember once, it was in the late '90s, we was in Philadelphia recording, and I was in a hotel room by myself. And I was like, "If there's a devil, I'm going to look for the devil in me. [Bleep] it."

[00:42:14] Kate: What'd you find?

[00:42:16] Norwood: I did not find the devil. I may have connected with my own spirit in some capacity, but before that, I went through some [Bleep] in my own self. I have precognitive dreams, and not as much as I did long ago, but it still happens. It began to happen maybe in my teen years.

[00:42:45] And I dated this girl, and we had the experience of a shared dream. Now, she told me I'd wake up because I was precognitive, and sometimes things would happen in close proximity to when I dreamed them.

[00:43:03] Periodically, I'd wake up in my girlfriend's bed and I tell her a dream and she'd say, "Oh, that's funny. I dreamt the same thing." And I brushed it off. I'm like, "Ah. She just trying to make it seem like we're closer than we really are." And then one day I woke up from a dream and I'm telling it, and she said, "Funny, I had the same dream." And I was like, "What happened next?" And she told me my dream.

[00:43:30] Kate: Oh wow.

[00:43:31] Norwood: She ran my dream back to me.

[00:43:36] Kate: You were connected, and she's intuitive, which we all are, but she was tapped into her intuition, and you felt it. What do you think of that? What do you make of that?

[00:43:44] Norwood: I think everybody on the planet has I think what they call extrasensory perception. I think everybody on the planet has these things. It as human as the ability to climb a tree if you got all your limbs working like is walking down the street. I think that culture or society, whatever, is constructed to have us ignore those things and be afraid of it.

[00:44:20] Religion does it. Schooling does it. Science has done it. And now science is catching up to what ancient cultures would've said, no, this is normal. I just believe it's all possible. In the '90s, I went and did Landmark Education, which came out of EST. And so that was a really good friend of mine, Overton Lloyd, who's a artist for George Clinton since the '70s. He still works with George Clinton.

[00:44:53] So he pointed me towards Landmark Education. So that blew my mind. And he coached me in the fact that like, you know what? If you don't just make this yours, and don't just repeat what they're saying, don't make it into a cult. Because people make it into a cult.

[00:45:11] So I just took it on like that. I've always been interested in philosophy. When I encountered Joseph Campbell, I was like, "[Bleep] yeah." Bow down. So I'm interested in story and how that relates to the human psyche, language.

[00:45:33] I'm a songwriter, a lyricist. I like words. So I used to read the dictionary and go down into the dictionary and find out the roots of words. Why does this word do what it does? And so when I came across the possibility that every word we're saying is a spell, I could relate. And I'm like, "[Bleep] yeah." So mind what comes out of your mouth. And I like that.

[00:46:03] Kate: What is the key to evolving creatively and as a human?

[00:46:09] Norwood: Curiosity. Curiosity and actually fearlessness, if you could get beyond your fears. I had a therapist. She said to me several times, like, "There's only love and fear, and then everything else is just fragments or combinations of those, or whatever." And I'm only just starting to grasp that.

[00:46:34] And the fear is the one we made up, and love is the one that, really, that's all that exists. So I was saying it's all love for a while, but I didn't know what I was saying. I was like, Snoop said it's all good. I'm like, "It's all love." That's how that came about. I wasn't thinking about the gravity of it.

[00:46:56] So getting beyond your fears and actually the desire to understand yourself. Like I said, I'm on the journey within, and the more that I unpack of myself, then the more authentic I can be. That's really my pursuit.

[00:47:17] Kate: What is instrumental in then getting to know ourselves and tapping into this authenticity, which is also our creativity and our curiosity and our humanity? What is that other key piece that has really worked for you in terms of healing and then also elevating and expanding not just your consciousness, but your capacity to love?

[00:47:39] Norwood: You know what? I can honestly say, I don't exactly have an answer that maybe would be like, hey, just follow these steps. I'm more or less like, learning as you desire to know yourself. I think your indwelling spirit guides you, just like everybody's path is different. But really, it is the desire without fear to uncover what's within.

[00:48:09] And I'm at a stage in life right now where I'm like, "Let me go see a psychiatrist, a therapist, a psychologist or something because maybe I can't do all this myself." I called an old friend that I ain't talked to in years that does energy work. He offered me years ago about energy work. I just called him. I'm like, "Bro, I'm going to take you up on that offer." I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know that much about it.

[00:48:38] Kate: You're speaking my language, Norwood, because we all need support. We all need to work with a specialist of choice. We all owe it to ourselves to do this deep healing and transformation. And it's the privilege of a lifetime to really get to know ourselves. And so maybe it took you a little while, but you're here, and I applaud and honor you for doing this.

[00:48:59] And thank you for sharing it publicly because it is my greatest hope that everybody takes you up on what you're doing and starts to look a little deeper and want more for themselves, and to get rid of the devilish ways, whether we think we have them or other people do, and really embrace this. And you don't pretend to have all the answers. You're just really open to exploring.

[00:49:24] Norwood: Yeah, absolutely. Check this out. My grandmother had severe Alzheimer's and dementia. And at some point, my uncles couldn't take it anymore, so my mother was like, "Send her to me." So in the early 2000s, my grandmother came to live with my mom. And observing my grandmother through her Alzheimer's and dementia experience, I got to see her wrestling with all manner of traumas from her childhood and in her preteen years.

[00:50:03] Very recently I was having a conversation with another musician who said his mother was having like her 90th and 91st birthday parties really soon. And he was like, "Yeah, you know what? Sometimes I see my mother wrestling with traumas from her childhood."

[00:50:25] I promise you, I made up my mind when I'm watching my grandmother be 10 years old and fighting with her 8-year-old sibling, was my mother. Turned into this 8-year-old, or my mother would be her older sister. My grandmother's 12 and her older sister's 14 or 15. So I'm watching this and I'm like, "Oh." That's when I realized we carry shit to the grave if we don't deal with it.

[00:50:56] Kate: Thank you so much for saying that, which is why I am so passionate about doing this work and talking about it in this show, and bringing on people to help us do it. And I appreciate you just, again, speaking so openly about it, because I feel like sometimes I preach this to people I love and care about, and it goes over their head or in one ear and out the other.

[00:51:17] And I just think you're going to deal with it now, or you're going to deal with it at 90 years old with some disease or in the grave. And you're going to keep carrying it into the next lifetime, in the next lifetime. There's no free pass. You've got to deal with it now. And yes, it can be challenging and scary and debilitating and awful at times, but it's also such a gift and privilege to clear this out and just see and feel and experience how good and juicy and meaningful and fulfilling life can be.

[00:51:47] Norwood: Yeah. I came up going to church every Sunday, and my mother sang in the choir. And I first played bass in the church at eight or so. And I wasn't good. I sucked. But they were support system. But honestly, that religious indoctrination put a lot of fear in me.

[00:52:10] I didn't know how scared I was until shit started bubbling up and I'm like, "Oh my God. This ain't living." You know what I mean? Like, wait a minute. That was one of the things that I had to deal with, where I had to let go.

[00:52:27] Kate: Ooh.

[00:52:27] Norwood: I had to get where I didn't care what was after this life. It wasn't atheism. I used the term irreligious. Didn't care. And I began to be in a space of like, I got to make sure that every day I'm in the realm of this planet. I live my life to the maximum, the fullest. Dealing with those fears was the first time, like, I'm going to hell. You know what I mean?

[00:53:01] The devil and all of that. I had to get past that. I couldn't carry that on in my life. And I don't care about uprooting anybody else's belief system. I'm just like, "Look, this is my journey, and it's my life, and I got to do these things for my own wellbeing.

[00:53:21] It was a conversation with-- I was at a friend's birthday party and it was me and six women for one of my girlfriend's, female friend's birthday party. They started talking about like, what if you die and there's nothing? Somebody said, "That's depressing." And I went like, "It's not depressing."

[00:53:43] And I tried to explain like, no. I just had to put it on that that might be the case. And if that's the case, what am I going to do? Lay the fuck out of the day. I'm not saying that's what it is, but ain't nobody got the answers, really.

[00:54:01] Kate: I appreciate that you're on this deep journey of self-reflection and healing, and it sounds like it truly is a gift that you moved on from Fishbone, as heartbreaking as that could have been at the time, and feeling the disappointment and the betrayal. But it sounds like it put you on this other path where you're thinking deeper, feeling deeper, and what that can do for your music career and your creativity and playing with other bands, which everyone can look at in the show notes. But when you--

[00:54:30] Norwood: Let me say so because my friend at that birthday party, she was like, I'm going to give you a book and then you tell me what you think. And it was a Brian L. Weiss book, Many Lives, Many Masters.

[00:54:42] Kate: One of my all-time favorite books. Wow.

[00:54:44] Norwood: And so that blew my mind. But at the end of it, I'm like, that's a good story. I like the fact that the whole thing-- how he stumbled upon past life regression, practicing childhood regression. So I'm open to the possibilities of much more. I'm okay with, I don't know [Bleep]. Exploring the possibilities is fun.

[00:55:15] Kate: So when people look you up online, they'll undoubtedly see all the music, accolades, bands, and so forth. What else do you wish was written there in your Wikipedia page about you, in terms of your identity, in terms of your success, whether it's doing this--

[00:55:34] Norwood: I don't know because I never looked at my Wikipedia.

[00:55:38] Kate: It's all the new--

[00:55:39] Norwood: I never looked at my own IMDb.

[00:55:42] Kate: But what I'm saying is, what else do you want people to know about you besides just the music? What are you proud of?

[00:55:50] Norwood: The things I'm most proud of, I think, one, my Fishbone journey is incredible. I'm deeply proud of my journey there, my accomplishments, the role that I played, what I gave to it. I regret nothing. And now it's over. I'm like, "I gave to the very end." I'm okay. I know deep inside I was a good brother to my brothers.

[00:56:19] Kate: Mm.

[00:56:20] Norwood: Beyond that, honestly, it is my transition into a philanthropic mindset. Honestly, that. And the only other thing is really my kids. My children, who are adults. And really, I appreciate nothing more than my relationship with them through their lives. Imperfect, for sure, but I look at my kids, like they're amazing human beings, and I love my conversations with them to this day.

[00:56:59] I got two kids, a son and a daughter. And being able to be a part of their lives through my musical career. And again like with my son, I saw that I was passing on trauma, and I reeled it in.

[00:57:19] Kate: Oh, I still appreciate that self-awareness. Thank you so much for saying that.

[00:57:24] Norwood: No, no, I saw it. I'm born in 1965. My parents grew up-- born in the '40s, growing up in the '50s, into the '60s. Black community, maybe all communities, I think, some people had parents with heavy hands. So that was normal to me to get my [Bleep] beat by my parents.

[00:57:46] It wasn't until I went to school with white kids where I was like, "Your parents don't hit you?" And believe me, all the original Fishbone, after you meet somebody, trauma bond. How bad your parents beat you? It's real quick. I actually hold nothing against my parents for it. It was just what the world was.

[00:58:11] And honestly, I had a deep thought about it at one point. Because my grandmothers both beat the shit out of me at some point too. So their grandmother's hands was heavier than my parents on some level. So I was like, "Damn, what if it just kept going back?" My parents, my grandparents hit harder than my parents, and the great grandparents. And the beatings kept getting more severe the further back you went until it was a white man with a whip in his hand beating the shit out of some slaves. And so I could forgive it all.

[00:58:52] Kate: Forgive it. How did you do that?

[00:58:55] Norwood: One, I never did take it personal either. You imagine it's from a place of love. And one, I'm like, "That's all they knew." The fucking Bible, spare the rod, spoil the child. And again, I don't think that's like indigenous American culture. I somehow think that may be ancient.

[00:59:18] That wasn't a part of the thing. And maybe in most African culture, I'm not sure, but I want to think that beating the shit out of your kids wasn't a thing. They were indoctrinated into Western European culture where that was very much a thing. And that's just what we had to walk through to get to where we are.

[00:59:44] And people today are still doing that shit. But my daughter, I never touched like that. I never beat the [Bleep] out of my son either. I call myself tapping him lightly. And at some point, I had to stop that shit. I didn't want to hurt him. I didn't want to do what was done to me, but I thought like, you got to do something.

[01:00:06] Kate: Yeah. Thank you for breaking the generational trauma. That's so important, and even to talk about it. Because a lot of people don't even know what that is or don't know what it is to heal ancestral trauma. So thank you for that.

[01:00:19] I just want to wrap up here by you offering a piece of advice or wisdom to someone who may be struggling with disappointment or betrayal or overcoming some generational trauma and needs some healing. What could you share with my audience today that will help them heal and evolve on their journey?

[01:00:39] Norwood: Honestly, the most powerful thing that I think people can do is ask for help. There's a lot of power in surrendering your ego to, I need help. I had some foundation with my interests and my pursuits that maybe guided me to books, guided me to lectures, to whatever that help me to connect with what might get me far enough without actually going and seeing a psychiatrist, therapist of some kind.

[01:01:16] But I'm completely open to that. And honestly, yeah. And if you need to go grab a book, go grab a book. Go download a video. Watch something, watch somebody. But really, human interaction, being able to find someone that you could trust on any level and open up to. I'm still working on a whole lot. As much as I don't give a [Bleep], there's maybe some things that I hold on to tight. You know what I mean?

[01:01:51] Kate: I appreciate that.

[01:01:53] Norwood: And so I'm working on it. In business, I always thought like, I want to surround my people with people I believe are smarter than me. Well, in life, listen to somebody else.

[01:02:08] Kate: What a concept.

[01:02:10] Norwood: Listen to what someone else thinks. Ask someone. So the ability to ask someone else what they think of you, and take whatever comes. Your friends, people who knows you, or acquaintances. And really accepting someone else's perception. You don't have to wear it every day as a prison suit, but just to consider maybe what someone else thinks of you as well.

[01:02:43] Kate: Thank you for that, Norwood. I so appreciate you being here today.

[01:02:47] Norwood: Right on. I'm happy you asked me on. It felt good to come on and hang out with you, Kate.

[01:02:54] Kate: It was good. It was a good time. Thank you so much, and thank you all of you for being here, especially through the end. We both appreciate you. We'll see you right back here next week. Bye, everybody.