Purposeful Power: Reclaiming Your Worth & Redefining Success with Amina AlTai

[00:00:01] Amina: I tried to outwork the system, but you can't outwork a broken system. And so in my late 20s, in my effort to try and outwork the system, I burned out. I was days away from organ failure. Ambition is one of those culturally complex, politically-loaded words. Ambitious men are seen as strong and powerful. Ambitious women are seen as aggressive.

[00:00:19] The biggest fear for me is the fear of not realizing my imagined potential. But I had this deep realization, what if the way to my "imagined potential" is actually through surrender? What if I actually don't need to do anything? What if it's in resting in the quiet magnetism that the real potential could come through?

[00:00:39] Kate: Hello, and welcome back to Rawish with Kate Eckman. I'm smiling because I've got a fellow author here, and it is so much work to put a book proposal together, get an agent, sign a book deal with a phenomenal publisher, write the book, and then promote it. It's a bit ambitious, right? It's very ambitious.

[00:00:58] And that's what we're going to talk about today on the show, The Ambition Trap: How to Stop Chasing and Start Living, which is the gorgeous new book from Amina AlTai, who's a friend, a colleague from New York City. Thank you so much for being here today.

[00:01:13] Amina: Oh my goodness. Thank you for having me and for being such a loving support in a process that can be really nuanced and lonely.

[00:01:19] Kate: Yeah, thank you for saying that. I see authors, and I just want to give all of you a hug because it's so much work, and I don't think people really-- especially to go the traditional route of securing the book deal and everything that it entails. And then promoting it is a whole separate job. And as I was promoting my book, I met so many incredible people, and not all interviewers, TV, radio, podcasts are created equal.

[00:01:43] And sometimes I just wish that, especially we've written these deep heartfelt books that people could go a little deeper with me. So I wanted to have you on. So I'm like, "Let's have some deep talk." Because I think there's some misconceptions when you reach a certain level of success in life that people think your life is perfect or easy or you've got it all together.

[00:02:03] Or if you look a certain way, that you don't have problems. Or like a certain celebrity, Maria Shriver, endorses your book, it's going to sell 50 million copies and you're a multimillionaire in your 20-million-dollar house or 20-million-dollar penthouse in Tribeca. And I just want to keep it a little real for people.

[00:02:21] And I think it ties into ambition because we're on this hamster wheel chasing and chasing and chasing because we never feel enough. And it isn't about accolades or awards or accomplishments. It's this inner journey that we go on. So of all the things that you could write about, and you've had this beautiful life and career, why ambition? Why are we talking about that and the trap of ambition?

[00:02:43] Amina: Yeah. Such a beautiful question. And before we hit Record, we were talking about this. When I met with my editor, one of the first conversations we had, she said to me, we write the book that we need most. And I think that's absolutely true in this case. I wrote a book on ambition because I am someone that has struggled with my ambition.

[00:03:01] I am a woman. I am an immigrant. I'm a brown person. I have chronic illness, and I'm also deeply ambitious. And I want a lot of things in my life. And I noticed, for me, the experience of growth was really challenging because, here's the thing. Ambition actually isn't the same for all of us.

[00:03:19] Ambition is really complicated by identity. And so this had me start to really deeply study it. But all my life, I think I'd been studying it just by looking at my dad and his relationship with work and growth and all of the things. And what I started to see is that ambition is one of those culturally complex, politically-loaded words that can either highlight our benefits or our defects depending on who's being labeled.

[00:03:41] There are all these studies that suggest that ambitious men are seen as strong and powerful. Ambitious women are seen as aggressive or like we're asking for too much. And that was my experience. And then we try to outwork the system. This is actually where I had a bit of misstep and fell into the trap.

[00:03:55] I tried to outwork the system, but you can't outwork a broken system. And so in my late 20s, in my effort to try and outwork the system, I burned out and developed two autoimmune diseases where my doctor called to tell me that I was days away from organ failure because I was trying so hard to make things work, make this big ambitious life work.

[00:04:15] Kate: I just have to take a pause there. And it gets me emotional because I've been there too. And I'm so sorry you experienced that, and I want to talk about how you managed and navigated that because I myself have my ambition. I was in the emergency room several times. Our bodies are so wise, and I get all the psoriasis breakouts and all these things happening with my skin. Or I get these toxic migraines that the brain specialist has no idea what it is.

[00:04:45] And I'm like, "That's horrifying that the top brain guy has no idea what's going on with my brain." And so then the default is, it's stress. And then it's like, why am I so stressed? And so I think too, we get in these careers where, especially in our 20s, you have to just go, go, go, go, go. And then you still struggle to pay your bills half the time. Nothing's ever enough. So when you got this diagnosis, how did that impact you, if at all? Or were you like, "I got to keep going, so this is just going to have to chill out?"

[00:05:16] Amina: Yeah, yeah. Honestly, it was wild. So I got that call from the doctor where she was like, "Go to the hospital. Don't go to work." But it didn't fully land in my body. I was like, "Oh, it can't be that serious." I went to work, and it wasn't until the end of the day that I was like, huh, maybe I should go get some help.

[00:05:32] And then I did. And it changed my life. And basically, that was a big pivot point for me, where I then decided to leave my job and go back to school and study coaching and somatics and mindfulness and nutrition and all these things just to feel better in my own life. And it ended up being a really tough rock bottom that made way for such a beautiful opening in my life.

[00:05:53] But I want to go back to something that you said before because I think that a lot of us are stuck between this idea of not feeling like we're good enough and then also feeling like we're too much. And I think that's part of the trap too. You said this when we first hit Record of like, "You're so beautiful, Kate. You're so pulled together, you're so smart. How could you actually be suffering?" But that's part of the double bind that we face in the ambition trap as well.

[00:06:19] Kate: Yeah. The amount of times that I've been upset and people have even said things like, "Oh, you're so gorgeous." I always get the, I would never think someone like you would be on a antidepressant or anti-anxiety medication when I shared that story. And I always think, who is someone like "me"?

[00:06:40] And however people define that, or you struggle and you feel like you're not entitled to struggle because you're white or pretty or blonde or have a certain amount of money, or your family is smart, or you've been to all the best schools. And I think it's such a disservice that not only people do to us, but we do it to ourselves.

[00:06:58] And then when you live your life from a place of, I don't deserve to be upset, then it's like, I'd also don't deserve to be happy. So I love that the word trap is in your title because it is this trap. And I have found myself sadly too, where I had to lose two loved ones to suicide before I really woke up and thought this, what am I doing, and how am I choosing to live my life? Because the one gentleman, his ambition to make it as an actor in Hollywood, I think that's what killed him with some other things. Just the self-worth beneath that.

[00:07:30] But where do we begin to unravel and step out of the trap, if you will, and step into a better way of living that when we operate from that place, we automatically attract instead of chase more success and we're actually able to fulfill our desires.

[00:07:48] Amina: Yeah, that's such a beautiful question. So one of the things that I noticed in my own life and with my clients was a couple of hallmarks around what I call painful ambition. Because I don't think ambition actually is a bad thing. I think ambition is neutral and natural. I define it as simply a desire to unfold, which if you think about it, is encoded in every living thing on the planet.

[00:08:05] Like this beautiful plant behind me has a desire to grow and unfold. All living things do. But where we get tripped up with it is when it's coming from a core wound. So there are five core wounds. It's rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice. And we could have the most perfect parents and most perfect childhood ever and we'll still have a core wound because it's a perfectly human rite of passage.

[00:08:26] But the challenge is when our ambition is coming from that core wound. So one of my core wounds is betrayal. So betrayal is when we felt like our caregivers didn't live up to what we thought they should be. So I had parents that absolutely did their best, but they didn't tend to pick us up from school and just forget us there.

[00:08:42] So the corresponding mask that we wear for betrayal is control. So I went through life controlling every last thing that I thought that I could control until the universe was like, well, you can't control this and serve me a big lesson. And so when our ambition is coming from that core wound, it is going to be the energy of destruction versus the energy of building and shifting culture and world changing ambition.

[00:09:05] Kate: And that's why I think we may get the book deal, or we sign the big contract, or we become the household name, and we still don't feel the satisfaction. It's the next thing or next thing. Or we are in the $5 million house. And I'm giving big examples because I want everyone to dream big here. And I live in Los Angeles. You're in New York.

[00:09:23] I feel like 5 million gets a starter home if you're lucky anymore. But that's a whole other conversation. But you're in the $5 million home. You've made it. And then it's like, I want the 10-million-dollar home, or the neighbors next door have better this or their kids are at the better school. And it's gross. I think now I've really stepped back from consumerism because I'm not into drugs or alcohol. For me, I wanted to buy a bunch of stuff. I wanted to eat a bunch of pizza.

[00:09:47] Amina: I've been there too.

[00:09:49] Kate: So when you heal and you step back, now I'm in a place where I'm like, "I don't want all this stuff because I know that it doesn't truly fill me up." So I'm trying to even think of the question. I have so many right now, but what are some of the other, I guess, core wounds? Or like you said, with the betrayal, it was control and that you can't control getting sick or something.

[00:10:10] But what are some of the other wounds that go along with that? Sorry. I'm like, "Oh, there's so many things going on in my head right now." I'm like, "Ah." But because I think people can identify with them, and then I think we unpack what we do instead.

[00:10:20] Amina: Yeah, exactly. And just to underline and echo what you're saying, it's like when we have this insatiable hunger inside of ourselves that no amount of food, shopping, drugs, alcohol outside of us will fill us up, it's because there's a core wound on the inside. And so we can try those things and then ultimately there'll be a moment where we realize it doesn't work.

[00:10:38] And then that's when we have the invitation to pivot to another way and to look at what those core wounds might be. And so sometimes people don't even identify with the core wound. They identify more with the mask. So I'll say rejection, and they're like, "Oh, I don't know if that comes up for me." But the rejection mask is avoidance.

[00:10:54] And then they're like, "Oh, I am deeply avoidant". Okay, now we're talking. Or the abandonment wound, the mask is dependent. So that can often show up as an anxious attachment where we're overly dependent on other people to get through the day.

[00:11:07] Kate: Even I saw what just happened with me, is that I'm identifying with these core wounds. And so, I call it my trauma brain, I have a moment where I went away for a second where even my question for you went away because I'm identifying with them and I'm thinking back to coping strategies that I use that they're not working anymore. I think sometimes when you talk about these things and have to just really go there, at least for me, it gets in my brain where I'm like, "Wait, what am I saying?"

[00:11:39] Amina: Exactly, exactly. One of my favorite ones, and this one comes up all the time, there's the humiliation wound. So that's when we felt like our caregivers were embarrassed of us in some way. Maybe it was our weight, which was actually true for me as a child. So the mask that we wear is masochism or martyrdom.

[00:11:54] So those are the people that will overwork, do all the things to take care of other people, put themselves last. And that's so many peoples that we know, especially in the world of work. And so we can start to see how these wounds and the masks create a bit of a dysfunctional relationship with our ambition.

[00:12:08] Kate: Ooh. I think something that I'm noticing is that I have really worked so hard to overcome a lot of these wounds, and the work is working. But then I find myself wanting to spend more time alone because I look around-- and I say this lovingly and with no judgment because I was there and there recently-- the amount of people who are so unwilling to do the work, they will be at the office for 16 hours a day and they're willing to do that.

[00:12:34] But go to therapy for an hour? No. Talk about childhood trauma? Absolutely not. How cute for you that you wrote this book. Can't relate to humiliation wound or not willing to go there. So how do we navigate when we are reading your book and we are hiring coaches like us and therapists and really wanting to tackle some of this so that we can have true fulfillment, not just keep making money climbing up the ladder?

[00:13:00] And our colleagues aren't doing the work. Our family members aren't willing to go there. Our friends are still coping by working late and drinking a lot. It can feel really lonely and isolating.

[00:13:12] Amina: Yeah, yeah. It 100% can. And this is something that so many of my clients fear. They fear doing the work because they're so worried of the people that they're going to lose. But that's scarcity mindset. Let's also think about the people that we're going to gain. Because I think about this from my own experience.

[00:13:27] Of course, I have lost people along the way. And the people that I have gained have been so beautiful, loving, loving me unconditionally. It's like what I have gained so far outpaces what I have lost. But we have to trust that that could be true for us. And there's times where it feels too scary to trust that, but we just go step by step. And there are going to be so many people that don't want to do the work. And that's always true. Sometimes people will come and have a consult with me, and I know that they're just not ready to do the work.

[00:13:56] Kate: How do you know? How do you know?

[00:13:58] Amina: I ask a series of questions. I ask how deep their pain is basically and if they're willing to continue to sit with that pain. And some people are like, "Get me out of here. There's no way that I can continue to sit with this pain." And some people are like, "It's all right. I'm tolerating it." And I'm like, "Okay, you're not ready."

[00:14:14] And so the pain has to be big enough for us to want to change. And we get our lessons when we get our lessons. But I think the one thing that we can do is if we feel called to change and we do the work on ourselves, it's like we're in a dance. We take a step to the left, then somebody that's dancing with us is going to take a step to the right. And so when we show up differently, the people around us show up differently too whether they realize it or not.

[00:14:34] Kate: Hmm. I love that. I'm curious what came up for you when you signed on the dotted line with a big publisher for this book?

[00:14:43] Amina: I love that you asked this.

[00:14:44] Kate: Yeah, because even anything I do or even like when my TEDx talk came out, and it was a year ago, I had this huge physical reaction to it and I'm like, "What is this?" And I remember my friend Scott said-- I'm like, "Why am I crying? What's going on?" And he said, "You're stepping into your greatness."

[00:15:06] And he said it so matter of fact, and that resonated. But I'm just like, what is going on here? It feels uncontrollable. Same with the book or when it comes out and there's all these expectations and feelings. And it has to do this. It was wild. So I'd love to hear your experience with it.

[00:15:23] Amina: Yeah. I'm so glad that you asked that because I think people would think these top-of-the-mountain experiences happened for you and you're just elated and it's wonderful and it's sunshine and rainbows. So the day that I got my offer, I was at a mastermind with entrepreneurs that either are at seven figures or want to get to seven figures.

[00:15:40] And it was this room full of super accomplished, really brilliant women. So already I was in that room feeling like a total imposter. And then I get the call from my agent. They're like, "We have an offer. It's a preempt. It's a really great offer." They tell me the offer and I'm like, "Oh my God, this is my wildest dreams."

[00:15:55] And then I get off the phone and I panic. Lose my mind, panic. And all these thoughts were flooding in of like, I don't deserve this. My teacher should go first. Who am I to get this deal? Somebody else should have this deal. I do EMDR therapy from time-to-time, and I called my EMDR therapist, and I was like, "I need an urgent session."

[00:16:17] I don't know what is happening in my body, but something is coming up for me. And so we had this session. Of course, like most things, it goes back to childhood. I'm the second child and all these stories and all these things. I didn't think that I deserved to go.

[00:16:29] And it took, I think, a good three months before I could complete that loop and really realized you worked really hard for this, and you earned this. It's not luck. It's not happenstance. You earned this. And I do feel like I'm really rooted in that now and I'm also really seeing how I earned this in this moment.

[00:16:48] Kate: Thank you for saying that. I have a takeaway. Again, my book came out during COVID and so my book launch was on Zoom. I wasn't at the bookstore. I wasn't at the big event. I'm grateful for the people who were there. I had pajama pants and slippers on and the nice top on top, like we all did during COVID on Zoom.

[00:17:06] But I remember, if I think back to that moment, it was over that evening, and I'm like, "So that was it? That was launch day? And it just felt so anti-climatic. And I was so grateful for the people who did show up and the people who pre-ordered books and bought the book.

[00:17:23] And then I'm like, "Oh, why am I not the number one selling book on Amazon?" It's like there's so many things that come up. And I just remember thinking, the goals need to be deeper than just checking off the list. And you even wrote too, I wrote down in my notes for today, our dreams versus societal dreams.

[00:17:45] And I think I got caught up in a lot of things in my career, what everybody else was impressed by, even working as a model in New York City, signed with Wilhelmina Models, and everyone was so impressed by that. But I hated it for many reasons. The book, I dedicated to my friends who I lost to suicide. So it was for them. But even then, you have the fake friends.

[00:18:06] I remember one woman said to me, "Oh, is this just a vanity project like so many other coaches and speakers do?" And it's so hurtful because I'm like, "This was a calling." Literally, God told me to do it. I did it. It was for friends who are no longer with me. And I have to hear comments like that. And I think that's part of it too. And this just sounds so trite, but I couldn't help but notice some blatant non-support from people when you work so hard and it's this massive thing.

[00:18:33] And I think of all the people I was at their weddings, buying them gifts for their decisions. They had kids, and I supported them for that decision. I don't have a husband and kids right now, and I'm like, "This is like my wedding and my baby shower."

[00:18:47] And the book costs, what, 16, 20 bucks? Whatever. I know I'm saying so much, but I think these are the things that come up, and I just want to be honest about it because all the people sitting back judging like, oh, it must be nice to be them. There's some hurt moments, or there's some confusing moments, or there's just some, is this as good as it gets moments?

[00:19:07] Amina: Oh my God. I'm so glad that you're saying this because I've had a heartbreaking experience. I am deeply grateful, and I understand what a privilege it is to do this. And at the same time, because we can hold two things, it has been such a heartbreaking experience, very similar to what you're saying.

[00:19:25] It's like you notice who shows up for you. So super kind people like you that are like, "Hey, I know what it is to do this. Let me help you." And then people that are completely MIA. And that's totally their prerogative and that's okay, but I think when you've shown up for people in a certain way and you love people in a certain way, and then you notice the opposite, it can deeply break your heart.

[00:19:43] And I keep coming back to the only way that I can make sense of this is the book is a spiritual assignment. And so I keep saying to myself, I'm like, "This is just a spiritual assignment. It isn't about selling books. It's not about making anyone happy. It is a spiritual assignment for me to heal my rejection wound and to be of deeper service."

[00:20:02] And if I do those things, I have succeeded. But as someone who is deeply ambitious and who was sold a bill of goods about what success looks like and has-- I think also, especially for coaches too, there's this path that's carved out for you. You do the one-on-one coaching, and then you scale, and you do the course, and then you get a book, and then you do a podcast.

[00:20:20] And so you feel like you're checking these boxes, and when it doesn't go a certain way, you're just left with the heartbreak. And so I just want to acknowledge and honor your experience because I'm really resonating with everything that you're saying.

[00:20:30] Kate: Yeah. And I just think it's so important that we be real and honest about it because it is such a journey, and I love to talk about concepts in the book and takeaways to help people, and I want to keep doing that, but I think it's a deeper conversation about what goes on behind the scenes with all of this. Because we all see that celebrity or that person who's killing it.

[00:20:49] And I think that was a huge inspiration for this show too, is I've met a lot of those heavy hitters, and they were jerks off stage, or they're not living with integrity personally or professionally. And so then it really had me looking at "success" differently and how I wanted to live my life in a life that feels really good, whether I'm making millions for my product or not.

[00:21:12] And I think that's a big disconnect in our culture right now that saddens me deeply. And you do. I try to have really intimate conversations with some people and it's just like robots. And I'm like, "Unless you're Ben Affleck at the movie premiere or a politician, we don't need to be just talking in perfect sound bites. What's really going on?"

[00:21:31] And I think now Ben Affleck is a perfect example. There's a lot of mess going on behind the perfectly coiffed hair, beautiful skin, which he has, and then delivering the soundbite. And I wish we could be more honest about it wherever we are in our journey. And I think maybe that's the next book I want to write. But it can feel hurtful because it is a business publishing.

[00:21:51] You are expected to sell a certain amount of books and then you want to get your next deal and then you want to do this. For me, it started to really zap the joy out of it because you feel like this transactional cow instead of a human, especially when you write a book like I did, which is all about the inner journey and the inner work.

[00:22:12] So it can be hard. And that's why I love in your book is really just so what we're talking about, the trap of all of this. And I think it is a hustle culture and that we're all told to chase. And I think as women, it's like we're more designed to receive, but ambitious women like us struggle with receiving, and we can't depend on people maybe because of things that happen in childhood.

[00:22:34] So we're like, "I just got to do it all myself and be ambitious, and I don't need your help. And I'll just do it because I've been disappointed or violated by so many people." So what do you make of this trap? And I've asked you, but I want to ask again how we begin to shift perspective and reframe this whole notion of success.

[00:22:52] Amina: Yeah. I came of age in the workplace, especially in the girl boss tech bro eras. I'm an elder millennial. And so I very much learned the hustle and grind. And I was doing that until it didn't work for me anymore. My body is so interesting. I feel like it is the canary in the coal mine.

[00:23:07] It's always teaching me something very similar to what you were saying about the migraines and the psoriasis. It's like my body will always be the first thing to be like, "Hey, something's not right here." And I've learned to really tune into that wisdom versus I used to really ignore it. And so one of the things that I came to realize is that we are taught that success is this never-ending upward trajectory.

[00:23:26] It is more for more sake all the time, like what we're talking about, of like, oh, it's the next book and then the next podcast and the next show and all the things. And if we're in that chase, we never let our soul speak. And so what I came to realize is that actually ambition in the way that I'm reframing it, and this desire to unfold is much more like a perennial flower.

[00:23:44] So with a perennial flower, you drop a seed into the ground. It comes back every year, and you take care of the inner and outer environment. And so because you've nurtured that seed, it comes through the ground, and then it has this momentary peak in the sun where the petals unfurl, and it's so beautiful.

[00:23:59] And then guess what? The seasons change and the petals fall off and it goes back underground. And it's fallow until you take care of the inner and outer environment again, and it's ready to rise again. But we don't let ourselves do that. We never let ourselves go underground. We never let ourselves be fallow.

[00:24:14] And I think it's so destructive to our bodies and to the planet. We're not designed for this. And I think so much of the burnout that we saw at the in the pandemic is a result of this. And I think people are becoming wise to this conversation.

[00:24:28] Kate: So I'd love to even just role play because it was even yesterday. And again, everything's all good, but I had this moment where I thought, I feel so burned out. And again, I was still in gratitude and there's lots of things going right, but I felt burned out and my inner child was just screaming like, "All we do is work, and I want more play."

[00:24:48] And I'm like, "What do you want to do?"Because LA's just weird energy and stuff right now, still after the fires, and I'm just feeling like it's time for me to move on. But if I was to call you either as a client or friend and say, "Girl, I'm experiencing a lot of burnout today. I am loving what I'm doing, and I'm ready to see more rewards. I'm ready to receive more. I feel called to reach out to people to do X, Y, and Z." What advice would you give me as a friend or coach in that moment of just, ugh?

[00:25:18] Amina: Yeah. One of the things that I love to do is I think very similar to you. It's like we're very similarly trained. I like to use a lot of tools, but also the body wisdom. So if somebody is coming in and there's a lot of thoughts, the first thing I'll ask is, what's happening in the body?

[00:25:32] Where do you feel this in the body? And then maybe they'll say like, "I feel it in my chest or my shoulder." And I'm like, "Great." So if we gave that sensation a voice, what would that voice say? Okay, great. Now what is the emotion that's associated with that? And then usually there's some breadcrumbs and a path that we can start to follow.

[00:25:50] So maybe it's like, okay, in my chest I'm feeling anxiety. And if I give the anxiety a voice, it's saying I'm not enough. And I feel like I have to keep chasing and stay on the hamster wheel in order to feel like I'm enough. Okay, wow. There's some really important information there for us. How old is that voice? What does that version of you need?

[00:26:08] That version of me needs a play date. Okay. What does a play date look like? A play date looks like going to the playground. I actually want to sit on the swings. I need to sit on the swings, or I'm going to go to the beach. And letting those parts of us speak and tell us what their needs are and addressing those needs. How do you approach it?

[00:26:23] Kate: Yeah. And I love that. Thank you. I think for me, I do. I tune into the body, and it was she wanted to like, let's go. I want to try this dumplings place. So we went to the dumplings place. And I think for me, there's so much talk of FOMO. I feel like I just work. And I work primarily from home right now. And then I go to the park and take my walks, which I love. I go to the meditation space. I go to Next Health and get my oxygen and IV and red light. And I do all these. It's like work and wellness.

[00:26:49] Amina: We're two peas in a pod by the way.

[00:26:50] Kate: I know. It's so funny. And then I'm like, "Go to my friend's boat." When I sit out loud, I'm like, "What a great existence." But then there's this part of me that's like, "Shouldn't I be like going to some event or going out or meeting more people or showing off my cute hairstyle today because it came from a salon." And then I go to the dinner and drop 100 bucks on some just basic meal, and it wasn't that great.

[00:27:13] And I think, okay, maybe that just show me I'm really not missing out on much. Again, the word ambition, because it's your book, kill. It's like, that was ambitious to go do that or sit in traffic for an hour. So it's just sometimes I think we need to go do those things that we think are fun or cool or what we're missing out on, only to say, "No, actually what you're doing is right on track."

[00:27:32] You're following your intuition. This is your season of building something substantial, of being really healthy, setting those self-care practices into place. And then you'll be in a different season. But I'm finding too, I'd love to get your take on this, not waiting. So it's like we're not going to chase, but also, I'm not waiting maybe for the phone call or the email or the contract. It's like, no, I need to leave now.

[00:27:54] I need to move out of this house and city now. So I'm going to take the really bold action and trust that the universe is like, oh, she's serious. Most people just talk. This chick, she doesn't even have a place to go yet, and she's out. Let's work overtime for her and deliver.

[00:28:10] Amina: Yes. I love that. I'm so with you. And just going back to what you were saying too before, it's like I often find that when we're using the language of should, we're in somebody else's belief system, whether it's a societal one or our families, but I love that exercise of like, go do the should and show yourself actually it didn't feel so good.

[00:28:28] Kate: Yeah. This is why I love this show too. Just hearing what I said in a different way that landed even better for me. It's like, okay, go do that thing. Or even the past, I would cope by going and buying the overpriced designer shoes. And then I buy them. I'm like, "I don't even really want these." And I'm just going to have to. I think it's good to do this too, because it shows how much we've grown. And then that thing that worked for us in the past, that's not our thing anymore.

[00:28:54] Amina: Yeah, yeah. And just going back to what you were saying of your intuition is telling you like, it's time to go. You are not being nourished by this space anymore, and I think that's such important information. And I talk about how in purposeful ambition, having our needs met so that we can show up and shine all the ways that we want to, is such a huge piece of the puzzle.

[00:29:12] So if your energetic needs aren't being met by this space, that's really important information. And in nervous system work, we say, decide, take action, observe, respond. So you've decided. You're taking an action. Maybe you're packing a box. Something is going to happen as a result of the action that you take. You observe that, and then you take another action. And so it will unfold because you're doing something different. You're doing something novel. And so it's definitely going to be happening for you.

[00:29:38] Kate: I love that. How do people unplug from societal standards that they maybe don't even believe in and tap into their desires, their ambition, versus the United States ambition or whatever country they're living in, or what mom and dad did, or what all the other kids from business school are doing where we know it's really our thing, our ambition, rather than all that other stuff on the outside?

[00:30:04] Amina: Yeah, great question. First of all, it's understanding our beliefs. So what do we believe about ambition, about success, about our careers. If we believe we have to get to the top of the ladder, we have to be CEO, we have to hustle and grind, we have to postpone our personal happiness, that's actually going to drive our thoughts, our actions, our experiences.

[00:30:22] And then if you have a moment of awakening where you realize, whether your body calls you out or your mind and says, "Hey, this isn't working for us anymore." Then you get to sit down and question those belief systems. And I think that's often 80% of the work.

[00:30:34] The moment you realize, wow, that actually wasn't my belief, that was my parents, that was societal, that was my friend. And then you're like, "Okay, now I want to replace it with something that feels true for me." But I think 80% of the work is knowing that it's not yours. And a lot of the time there's emotion that comes up with that.

[00:30:52] So for me, child of immigrants, like the idea of not having a secure, corporate career, there could be a lot of guilt associated with that because my parents worked really hard for me to get here, and I got to go to college and all the things. So there's usually a lot of emotion that comes up with rewiring those beliefs, and we have to sit with that too and be in right relationship with those emotions as well.

[00:31:14] And then realize that, actually, us doing the work that we're called to do is the biggest, most sacred contribution that we could ever do, versus living into something that isn't for us and being chronically dissatisfied and discontent and just contributing to more unhappiness in the world.

[00:31:29] Kate: That was beautiful. What are you learning about yourself through this process that can bring up so many different emotions?

[00:31:38] Amina: You were saying you and I are coaches. We've done a lot of work. We've been to all the therapy. And I've seen this throughout my career. I often say, "Every next level of becoming requires a different version of us." But oftentimes similar wounds are still there just in a slightly different way.

[00:31:54] And so I have the betrayal wound and control is my lifeboat or my mask. So I am just watching that control come up so big. So when people haven't been able to step up for me in the process, I'm like, "Don't worry, I got this. I'll control the crap out of this, and I will make it work." And so I just keep watching my tendency and asking myself, "Okay, what are you really afraid of? Why is control coming in? What is control trying to protect me from?" And then choosing another way.

[00:32:20] Some days I get it right. Some days I don't get it right. But I think it's fascinating to me that you can do all this work and then you have these moments, and the same wounds come and tap you on the shoulder.

[00:32:32] Kate: I think it's also growth that we're even able to ask ourselves these questions and sit with it, because what is scaring you right now? Or what does scare you right now?

[00:32:43] Amina: The biggest fear for me is the fear of not realizing my imagined potential. And I'm laughing as I say that because it's my imagined potential. But I had this deep realization. So I have this fear of not realizing my imagined potential. I feel like I have all this capacity inside of myself and I want to give it to the world, and I feel like it can really help.

[00:33:05] And I thought the way to do that was to push and force. And I had this realization through the book process that actually what if the way to my "imagined potential" is actually through surrender. What if I actually don't need to do anything? What if it's in resting in the quiet magnetism that the real potential could come through? And I was like, "Damn. Wow."

[00:33:27] Kate: I know. You're speaking my language and I'm finding this whole conversation, I'm having body reactions because I think it's resonating so much, and I can feel your full spectrum of emotions. So thank you for showing up with that because you're present and you're here and you're doing the work.

[00:33:44] I always use Tom Brady as an example because he was one of the greatest, if not greatest quarterback of all time. He was still winning Super Bowls well into his 40s. And we are Big 10 athletes at the same time. And I think, gosh, I go to Pilates. My knees hurt, and he's literally winning Super Bowls.

[00:33:59] And so I bring him up because there's this notion too of, you're with a Penguin Random House author, or you're coaching this person, or you're doing this, or you have this apartment or money, so you're good. And everyone knows in physical fitness, if you're super fit, you have to work harder than anybody to maintain that.

[00:34:17] And with Tom Brady, he's got 100 coaches. Some he pays for out of pocket, independent of the team because he wants to compete at the highest level forever. And so I love the freedom that we're talking about today in terms of it's always a journey. You're always doing the work. You can be the bestselling author. And if you're in integrity and you're legit and real, you are doing the work simultaneously while you are the expert on all the media outlets.

[00:34:43] There's not like, I'm this expert now. I know it all, and I don't have to keep doing the work. When I see that, I'm like, "Ooh." You talk about avoidant, you talk about denial. You talk about someone who is scared to go there, and then you do. You end up seeing them. They just implode, our celebrities, our artists. That they can create some albums for a bit and then suddenly what they went through unfortunately comes back to bite them.

[00:35:07] Amina: Yeah, yeah. I have never worked so hard emotionally as I have in this process, and I'm curious if it was the same for you.

[00:35:15] Kate: 100%. I say like, I don't know why it does, but we're literally pouring our heart and soul onto the page to put in public to be judged by the world. We're didn't write about cupcakes, although that sounds like a really fun project. We didn't write about how to build a perfect garden, although some people could criticize your gardening as well.

[00:35:35] But when you just share these deep, intimate stories-- many of the stories in my book, my family didn't know. Close friends didn't know. And then it's like, here it is for the world. And it just feels so raw and so vulnerable, and you open yourself up to judgment. And then I think what's even worse than the judgment at times is the friends or family members who just don't acknowledge or read it at all.

[00:35:57] And I think, gosh, do I have to be pregnant or walking down the aisle to get some acknowledgement or validation? And I think something that's come to me recently is if a lot of people don't really get what I'm doing or-- I had someone say to me like, "Are you having fun with your podcast?"

[00:36:17] And do you think they would say to my brother who's an MD, "Oh, are you having fun with your patients? Are you giving them little allergy shots? Do you enjoy it?" And I like to just call these things out. And you laugh because it's absurd. But the things that people just say, and so I think, gosh, if they think that, and I know I get underestimated all the time, but I just use it as fuel to keep going.

[00:36:38] And I think something my coach said to me recently, is that believing in our vision in isolation is enough. So if only I am here with my vision and only I believe in what I'm doing, that's enough. And then doubling down on that. But it is hard because sometimes you just want, whether it's the Instagram message or you text me like, oh my gosh, I read your book. It changed my life.

[00:37:02] Or Oh my gosh, I love that podcast you did with so and so. I've never heard success spoken about in that way, or oh my gosh. I saw your show with Amina and I bought her book and I gifted it to all of my bridesmaids. It's like one text message can mean so much, and I don't know why it's so hard sometimes for people to offer that to us.

[00:37:21] Amina: Yeah, I'm with you. And I think it's honestly a reflection of their mindset. We live in a very heteronormative world where they're like, maybe you go to college, you get married, you have children, especially if you identify as a woman. And actually, in the process of writing this, I don't have any children. In the process of writing this book, I got divorced.

[00:37:37] Kate: Oh, wow.

[00:37:38] Amina: Very similar to you, it's like I don't have these classic milestones that a lot of people will celebrate you for. And that is really lonely and isolating. And I feel surrounded by people that think a bit similarly to me. And also, I've been inviting people. I told my sister, she had her first baby a year and a half ago, I was like, "This is my version of giving birth." And not to diminutize the process of carrying a child and all that. It's so huge. And also this is the closest I will come to that. And so I would love to be honored in the same way.

[00:38:07] And not everyone can see it that way. I know some people are laughing at me being like, "That's sad." And then some people are like, "That's amazing." But I've been trying to share as much as I possibly can of like, this is my version, and I hope that you can start to see it that way.

[00:38:21] But I also in the process, and I think this is a daily thing for me, and this is part of the heartbreak that I've been feeling, I'm trying to make peace with the fact that this may not go the way that I want it to go. My friends may not read it. It may not hit the numbers that my publishers hope for.

[00:38:38] It may not get the reviews. And just for the language and simplicity of this podcast, I'll call it failure. I've been making peace with the fact that it might be a failure. And some people might be like, "That's not like a really ambitious place or abundant place to come from."

[00:38:52] But for me, actually, there's alchemy in it because I think there's so much fear around that piece that if I alchemize that energy, I actually can show up a whole lot more expanded. So it's a practice that I've been in.

[00:39:04] Kate: I appreciate you just being so candid, and it's making me emotional because why we do this to ourselves? It's already like society and others can be so harsh. And so for me, it's a success. As I hear my intuition saying right now, you already won. And I just want to acknowledge you for that.

[00:39:21] You already won. You put yourself out there. You were willing to do the work, not just at the computer, that kind of work, but the behind the scenes work that nobody sees, but you and your coach, therapist, whomever, and certainly won't be acknowledged or celebrated with a party or gifts like marriage or a baby or a birthday.

[00:39:40] But, you know. And it goes back to that like us knowing and isolation is enough. And you know that you've already won and that it's a success. And really redefining that and just to put yourself out there in such an ambitious way. And I think because I am in the business, getting a book deal as a non-celebrity with Penguin Random House, and you're not 70 years old and been doing this for 50 years, I think that in itself, and to just sit with that and take that in. And I'm curious what your inner child even thinks or says to you about that, even that accomplishment.

[00:40:18] Amina: First of all, I just have to thank you so much for, one, how you show up on this podcast, how you show up in the world, because it was an invitation for me to show up as vulnerably, and this conversation just feels really, really healing. And so I'm just so grateful for who you be and how you navigate and the questions that you ask and all of the things.

[00:40:36] But what you just reflected back to me, it's like my shoulders dropped. I think my heart felt at ease for the first time in a while, and inner child said like, "I can't believe that's our life. I can't believe we did that."

[00:40:49] Kate: I know. Because when I saw it, and again, your book, I wish I could show it here, but everyone--

[00:40:53] Amina: Oh, here I have the advanced reader copy.

[00:40:55] Kate: Please. Yeah, it is stunning. It is. Yeah, hold it up again please. I just want everyone to take it in. And please watch on YouTube if you're listening. And a forward by Rachel Rogers, endorsed by Maria Shriver and others. It's so stunning. Girl, you already won.

[00:41:10] But that's why this show is how important it is to talk about our deepest fears, vulnerabilities, doubts, insecurities. Because then we get to reflect back for ourselves, our inner child, and then attract people into our lives who are like, "Girl, you're the shit. You are a rock star. Do you even see what you did?"

[00:41:27] And of course again, it's a business, but if you didn't even sell one book, which that's already done, but whether you sell one or 100 million, you won. It's a success. And I think that is what we need to slow down and give ourselves and take that in.

[00:41:43] And it's just like, I'm this little girl from this, and now I'm doing that. How do we even get there or get here? I say that when the credit card bill comes, like, "How'd we get here?" So to do this, have this, and be like, how'd we get here? And be able to go back and look at the receipts, if you will.

[00:41:58] And it's like, did that. And then have a roadmap for others if they dare to follow and teach and share your story. Because anyone listening right now who says, "I don't have the time." Or, "she got it because her dad isn't publishing." But no, you forged your own way. You were self-made. You overcame so much. That's what this show is about too. It's a show of overcoming and getting here. What are you most proud of in this moment?

[00:42:27] Amina: Honestly, just what you reflected back to me, I'm just really sitting with, because I'm just going to be super honest with everybody and you listening. This week, I really felt like a loser. That was the word that was coming up for me. And I recognize that it was coming from a dysregulated nervous system, and I used my tools and I got to the place where I realized that was a very old story.

[00:42:47] But when a lot of doors don't open, because you're basically marketing and selling this book on your own, even if you're with a big publisher-- and they're so wonderful and supportive and kind and all the things. And especially the moment that we're in, because my book is written for women and other historically excluded people with the ERG rollbacks and the DEI pushback, I'm getting a lot of pushback on my book.

[00:43:06] And so a lot of doors were closing, and I took that to mean there's something wrong with me. And so for weeks, I'd been really sitting with that. And then yesterday I had this shift, thankfully, where I realized, okay, that's a really old story. That's from a very wounded part of me.

[00:43:19] But just to hear your reflection back of like, you did this. You extracted this book from your soul. You learned a whole lot of things about yourself. You let it be a spiritual experience. You had some amazing women who came in and endorsed the book. I just feel really grateful for your reflection because, yeah, it's felt a little wobbly this week in particular.

[00:43:39] Kate: I'm sorry. I understand, and I've been there. And mine recently was the, I'm this years old. I've got all these master's degrees. I've worked my ass off, and I'm grateful for the money I do have in the bank, but-- and again, I'm very jaded because of where I live, but I'm like "I should have millions in the bank and be able to buy the 10-million-dollar place I don't even want because I don't want to furnish that, heat and cool it, or clean it.

[00:44:00] Amina: Clean it.

[00:44:00] Kate: Yeah, clean that. But I don't like people in my house, so I'm not hiring the cleaning lady. And then I'm like, why are you doing this to you? And then I just think, we all have our season and our time and not everybody is meant to be world famous or be a billionaire.

[00:44:13] But I just feel, because I am willing to even look at this like you just did, thank you, I am doing-- and maybe I don't like to go out anymore because I'd rather be on my Zoom call with my trauma therapist where I feel like a completely different person. That's wealth to me. That is worth more than $20 million in the bank.

[00:44:32] And you know that if you've done it where I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I'm becoming the person who can attract that while I'm asleep in bed." So I like just saying these things out loud. And so I had that moment too where I'm like, "Why don't I have more money in the bank?" Type of vibe. And it hurt my heart.

[00:44:46] And then I justwent back to, this is all part of your journey. And how important it's to honor our journey, where we are in the moment. And what a beautiful story that you were able to even share here, because I promise you, whomever is listening has felt a certain type of way about themselves for whatever reason, whether they admit it or not.

[00:45:05] And I think that's why so many people are getting wasted all the time or hurting people in relationships. And so I applaud you, again, for just even being able to admit that in a public forum. And the people who are rejecting you or I've been rejected too, I just look at those same people, when you're now so and so from such and such, they're going to be the same ones beating down your door. I just thought of, it's a funny example, but Tupac. I love Tupac.

[00:45:32] Amina: I love Tupac too.

[00:45:33] Kate: That's with Tupac. So whenever I need a message, so I feel like you need this message now too, the universe, my intuition will show me when I'm walking or something. And it showed me from Tupac Resurrection, one of my favorite films that was made after his death, he was talking about being in the club and no women wanted anything to do with them.

[00:45:52] He's like, "I was at that same club a year later after I'd been in this music video and I started coming out." And he's like, "All of a sudden I'm just so adorable. Everyone's in love with me." And so I think of that too. And then you'll get to choose like, you weren't with me when I was building, or you weren't interested in my first book for whatever reason.

[00:46:11] So I just think that you're being set up to be able to be even more discerning, even choosier, and all of that is irrelevant because it really just is. But again, when we do the work and we shift, we'll see people start to treat us differently, or as you've said too, so many will just fall away.

[00:46:28] And that's okay too, but to really honor where we are and not worry so much. But I just want to give you a hug too, because your book is brand new. It's out now. It is not just triggering, it's a very confronting experience to put ourselves out there boldly.

[00:46:46] Amina: Yeah. And thank you for showing us such a beautiful example and just fostering these conversations. Just like the way that we started our conversation of people look at you and they think, wow, you're so successful and so beautiful and so accomplished. You couldn't possibly have these challenging feelings or experiences.

[00:47:00] And so I think it's so important that we get to share about how confronting it is and how we have been confronting these moments. Because I think you're just such a beautiful example of what it means to walk the walk and talk the talk.

[00:47:11] Kate: Thank you. Right back at you. Is there a story that you share in the book that you hold onto or means a lot to you and you think, oh, this is my favorite page, or my favorite story, or if I had to frame a chapter in the book, it would be this? What comes to mind when I ask you that?

[00:47:27] Amina: There's two parts I love. That's a beautiful question. No one's asked me that question. So there's two parts. I talk a lot about my grandparents in the book. Both my earth side grandparents and my heavenly grandparents were always just very present in my life and always looking out for me.

[00:47:41] And there was a moment when I first became a coach and I was finding that the way was tough, that it was challenging. And my grandpa who had passed came to me in a meditation and was like, "Teach from you." And it literally sparked this incredible exploration where I was like, "Oh, you know what? I think it does make sense to create my own curriculum."

[00:47:59] Other people's tools don't always work for me. Let me see what I can put together. And it burst this beautiful curriculum that launched my coaching practice and all the things. And so I think of that, that deeply spiritual moment. And then one of the last passages in the book, I talk about the difference between discipline and devotion.

[00:48:17] So in the world of work and entrepreneurship, we're told to be disciplined, to white knuckle your way to the thing to make things happen. Very much the control wound. And instead, I invite people to think about devotion, which means to be dedicated to a divine purpose.

[00:48:31] And how much more generous it is to think about, well, what am I dedicating my divine purpose to versus forcing and white knuckling and pushing and instrumentalizing my body to achieve a thing. Instead, can we be students of that divine purpose, which I think is just so much lovelier.

[00:48:47] Kate: That's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And I love that you brought your grandparents into it. And it is such a reminder that those moments where we feel, I'm so alone or I've outgrown some friend groups or family doesn't really understand what I'm doing, that we have people, past or present, God's spirit universe if you believe in a higher power.

[00:49:04] And I just choose to believe, again, when we're taking these bold actions is like our team, I can't see it, but they're working overtime behind the scenes. And another thing that came up as I was tuning into your book this morning is Santa Claus.

[00:49:16] And forgive me, it's a funny example, but you think of-- everyone talks about manifestation as you know, and I think people think manifestation is sitting by the tree and just telling Santa Claus what you want and then leaving it there with some cookies and milk and then being like, "Okay, tomorrow I'm going to wake up without lifting a finger; I'm going to have millions. I'm going to be the bestselling author. I'm going to lose all the weight or whatever your thing is.

[00:49:38] And really the manifesting is, and I'll use a music example because I've had musicians on my show recently, it's manifesting is writing the music, it's going and taking the vocal lessons and teaming up with some other artists and coming up with a melody or writing lyrics and what's on your heart.

[00:49:54] And then, man, I'd like some help. And then without even asking, there's a guitar under the Christmas tree when you wake up and it's like, now I can really start-- like put this whole song together because I've done the pre-work. And so I just think that even with writing, like everyone and their sister wants to do a book and do the book deal, and I just invite people, I'll even say to people, oh, why do you want to do a book?

[00:50:15] Are you a writer? are you really passionate about overcoming obstacles or whatever? And people are like, oh no, it's just to get more business and this and that. And so I just offer you too, you're up against a kind of icky mentality that is our culture. And I think that's why sometimes we feel a little bummed out because it's like, man, speaking of ambition, if I had the win at all, cause cheat and control and manipulate people, I could get there faster. And again, I'm like, oh, I'd have more money in the bank if I was just like the marketing hoe who just-- anyway.

[00:50:51] Amina: [Inaudible]

[00:50:52] Kate: Sometimes, it takes a bit longer, but then when I look in the mirror, I feel really proud. And when I look at you, I'm just so proud of you because it's pure intentions and doing it for the right reasons. And if it takes a little longer, but then just like marriage, which all it takes is one person who has a huge platform, for instance, which several have endorsed your book to say, hey, I want to put you on this platform.

[00:51:14] Or, hey, I want to do this, and I just want to remind you, you've already done it so that you can keep building from that. But who you are, who I am, who you are listening in this moment, it is enough. And I think the sooner we get to that, not just understanding it intellectually, but truly embodying it, the other stuff just flows in.

[00:51:32] Amina: Mm. I love that. Yeah. The truly embodying it and I think I'm in a part of the journey where that feels a little bit tricky, but everything that you've reflected back to me today is just such a beautiful reminder and invitation to really double down there. And I'm with you. It's like, yeah, there are always ways; there's always shortcuts, right.

[00:51:49] But I'm really interested in the spiritual growth. That's the journey that I signed up for in this lifetime, and I feel really happy when I look in the mirror, and I know that you do too. And so that's the real success.

[00:51:58] Kate: Yeah. And you've already won as I'll keep saying. Something that I read from your book, as a society, we have a tendency to chase our bigness from a place of pain, and we've spoken about that. What is just a little nugget, as we start to wrap up here, that you can give people to, again, start embracing their wins and start embracing ambition from a place that uplifts rather than causes even more pain?

[00:52:25] Amina: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, I always think it's really important if we have been chasing our ambition from a place of pain to not make ourselves wrong for it. A lot of the times we beat ourselves up and we're like, oh, there's something wrong with me, and why did I do this thing? I really want to invite you to take the judgment out of this conversation because we were taught this.

[00:52:41] This is culturally co-signed. We're rewarded for it in lots of ways. We wear lack of sleep as a badge of honor, hustle culture is a badge of honor. So first and foremost, I really want no one to feel any type of way. If you're checking some of the boxes on Painful Ambition, and then the awareness of that is 80% of it, because then you're going to start to see, okay, well, there's this core wound and there's me showing up in this way.

[00:53:03] And the minute that we recognize it, there's an opportunity to choose something different. And so step by step, day by day, minute by minute, I want you to just choose something different. It doesn't mean that we have to abandon our jobs, our businesses, our ways of life overnight. That feels psychologically unsafe for almost everybody.

[00:53:21] And so I want you to start with a singular choice. Well, what's one way that I could release a little bit of control today? What's one way I can stop overworking my body or my mind today? And just start with that one choice. And then over time, it'll grow. And then eventually you'll have a wildly different life. But be kind with yourself. Don't judge yourself and just start small.

[00:53:41] Kate: I like to start small. Speaking of which, after you do some of these interviews and there's so much in the book promotion and so much to navigate, what little small steps will you take to not only silence the I'm a loser voice or, really manage the really scary expectations at times working with a big publisher and these times, how will you really manage all of that and something that we can hold onto when we get overwhelmed.

[00:54:09] Amina: Yeah. I really appreciate that question. In the book I have-- there's a lot of tools. There's a lot of exercises, and I reference nervous system work a lot because it's been really transformative for me. So one of the things that I mentioned is when I was having that loser story, what I actually realized is that was a fight or flight thought, right?

[00:54:24] So when our bodies are in a state of fight or flight, which can happen for any reason, no reason at all. You could just be walking down the street, and your body will just tip into fight or flight because it's a pattern, it's habituated. And so you can recognize that by tuning into the body. I like to use a process called mapping, which is just picking two points on the body and bringing awareness to those two points.

[00:54:43] And after a couple of minutes of bringing awareness to those two points, you'll notice your structure change, your body structure. So maybe your shoulder will drop, maybe your neck will elongate, maybe you'll sit more upright. you'll notice differences in your structure. Because what's happening is your brain is updating the map of the moment.

[00:54:59] Because when we tip to those old thoughts or we future trip, we're going fight or flight because we're not in the moment. And so the practices of bringing ourselves into the moment can radically shift the talk tracks that we have for ourselves. So everything that's in the book I'm a student of right now.

[00:55:13] So when I'm doing these podcasts and I'm on the stages and those thoughts come up, I'm using these actual tools that I've laid out.

[00:55:19] Kate: Yeah, that's so helpful. What's a-- I hope you understand this question. What's a anti ambitious exercise that you like to do? So, for me, that feels like the art of doing nothing, but something that is not ambitious, but is actually helping you get to your goal faster.

[00:55:37] Amina: Yeah. Being in nature, like laying in the grass. Nature is so great for the nervous system. I live two blocks from a park, which I love so much, and just taking a walk around the park, or just sitting on the bench or laying in the grass, all of that contributes to a healthier, more supported nervous system and has nothing to do with our unfolding, but everything to do with our unfolding.

[00:55:58] Kate: Yeah, it is that grow with the flow and you think of nature is not in a hurry. It goes in its own natural time and it's perfect and divine and beautiful and none of us judge it. And it just-- it is. I do go to practice. I even notice what's happening with the blossoms or the trees and even just look up and wonder and awe and feel their embrace and just to keep standing tall and even surviving fires and everything else. So it is really powerful.

[00:56:28] Any final message that your intuition or body or nervous system is feeling called to share? I'm feeling so many things, which is a testament to just, I know you're navigating so much and there's so much excitement and all the other things, but any final intuitive message? I'm so curious what comes through and I'm feeling so many things as well.

[00:56:49] Amina: Yeah, I'm definitely feeling so many things and just so grateful for the space that you've held. One thing that I want to make clear, and I think it is clear from this conversation, but it's like there was a tingle in my throat and I'm like, I feel like I have to say this is, I'm calling ambition a trap because of the way that it's been taught, but I am in no way, shape or form asking anyone to renounce their ambition.

[00:57:07] Basically, what I'm inviting you to do is be in right relationship with it. So anyone that's listened to this conversation today and is worried that I don't want you to be ambitious, that's not the thing. I just don't want you to hurt yourself in the process, and I want you to find your own way and flow with it.

[00:57:20] Kate: Hmm. I love that. And is more of a balance, and again, creating our own definition. Ambition, I see in this sense is more of an invitation to do it your way and to be conscious of is what is my way? Do I even know myself? Who am I? And then what do I really want as opposed to what all the externals are telling me I should be doing.

[00:57:40] Amina: Exactly.

[00:57:41] Kate: Yeah. I'm going to all tie, The Ambition Trap: How to Stop Chasing and Start Living, it is everywhere now. Everyone go pick up a copy. It makes a great gift. It's so stunning, and I think, and nothing else. I love having it there on the coffee table to pick up and have it as that reminder with my morning coffee to really redefine what that means for me and to start embracing and shifting how I go about being ambitious in the world.

[00:58:05] Amina: Kate, you are incredible. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for the incredible work that you do in the world, for the beautiful questions that you ask and who you are as a human. I couldn't be more grateful to have sat with you today.

[00:58:15] Kate: Thank you so much. I feel the same. Continued blessings and success. I'm rooting for you near and far. You've got this. You're such a superstar and you've already won. And you've won too because you're here watching Rawish, and you made it till the end. So go pick up the book today. I know that you will love it.

[00:58:32] I'm just so honored that you're here. Let's keep these conversations going. DM me or send a message if you want to be on the show or if you have a question. And go ahead and leave a review if you feel called as well. We'll see you back here next week. Bye everybody.